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Post by Quatannens on Jul 22, 2013 15:23:03 GMT 1
I think with the U21 races, there are enough opportunities for youngsters. For me a real change would be to change U21 to a higher age. In real life there are almost no cyclists with such a low age participating...
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Post by Ab Normaal on Jul 22, 2013 15:32:27 GMT 1
I think the amount of U21 races is fine. It shouldn't be too much, so 4 races are fine. I really hope I the extra training spots will come, because it will be a very very nice addition to the game. I think training youngsters could even be the most fun part of the game, but as it is now it's just not worth it to get one, which is a shame (edit: and solving this with more U21 races is not the way to do get more fun). Why not? By adding training spots for U21, you essentially allow every team to focus on youth while still able to compete in the other races. The only teams that will have to make a choice are the poor teams. By adding more U21 races, there's an incentive to train U21, but you'll still have to make a choice... you have to take away from your ability to compete in the other races to focus on young riders. Every team will have to make that choice... rich and poor... because regardless of how much money you have you only get 25 training spots. It's NOT fun to change the system so that teams can win in every area. Teams should have to choose where to put their efforts. Those choices are what makes the game competitive... and competition is what makes the game fun. Not being able to beat everyone at everything. But you still have to do that. Top teams have cyclists with huge wages. You can't have 25 top cyclists, a top trainer and a youth scout. No one can afford that, so, if you choose to have a YS this means you can't get the best trainer or pay salaries asked by the top cyclist. A top YS costs about 400K, a top trainer about 450k, 25 cyclists with an average wage of 10k (which is not very high if you check the top teams), makes weekly costs of $ 1.100.000. Nobody can afford that.
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Post by kurtinsc on Jul 22, 2013 20:58:41 GMT 1
Why not? By adding training spots for U21, you essentially allow every team to focus on youth while still able to compete in the other races. The only teams that will have to make a choice are the poor teams. By adding more U21 races, there's an incentive to train U21, but you'll still have to make a choice... you have to take away from your ability to compete in the other races to focus on young riders. Every team will have to make that choice... rich and poor... because regardless of how much money you have you only get 25 training spots. It's NOT fun to change the system so that teams can win in every area. Teams should have to choose where to put their efforts. Those choices are what makes the game competitive... and competition is what makes the game fun. Not being able to beat everyone at everything. But you still have to do that. Top teams have cyclists with huge wages. You can't have 25 top cyclists, a top trainer and a youth scout. No one can afford that, so, if you choose to have a YS this means you can't get the best trainer or pay salaries asked by the top cyclist. A top YS costs about 400K, a top trainer about 450k, 25 cyclists with an average wage of 10k (which is not very high if you check the top teams), makes weekly costs of $ 1.100.000. Nobody can afford that. You don't really need a top youth scout with the ideas floated here. You get the bonus training for the guys you sign regardless, right? So let's look at the YS skills. Perception... how often you hit with your YS. This is important of course, but if you're developing your own team as you go and concerned mainly about training your riders, it's not AS important. You aren't looking ot hit and sell every week... you are looking to simply hit enough to keep your training queue full. 10-15 is fine for this. Steering/Balance.... somewhat important... but not a ton to be honest. The way it works (as I understand it) is that you get a random steering/balance from 0-the skill. So the question is... how much more valuable is a 20-20 then a 10-10? The real issue is that guys with low steering and balance are bad... but once you reach an adequate level I'm not sure it matters much. 10-15 is probably fine. Current Ability... the bonus to the top skill is a random number between this and 0, divided by 10. A 15/10/15 scout will cost you 100K a year and give a top team everything they need for their youth program... along with the training slots to build them up into riders of value. They don't need to hit frequently as their goal is to use the training slots and they'll hit ENOUGH. Not to mention, the teams that DO invest in a 400K YS that will produce excess talent won't be able to sell them because nearly everyone will at least have the 15/10/15 YS for the training slots. Four of the 12 division 1 teams already can afford a youth scout apparently. I feel pretty confident in saying if you bump their value up a ton by letting you have extra training slots, nearly all of them will. Oh... and only 4 have trainers costing more then 400K... EGV who leads the league is close to 300K for his. More realistic math. 350K for the trainer. 100K for the YS. 250K for cyclists. 700K total. Many of the wealthier teams can afford that. PAN currently pays about 550K for just his trainer and YS while in 1:1. Heck, I make about 500K a week in division 3 with very "bleh" results. The top teams won't have to choose if you allow them free training spots. The training spots are what force the choice today.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Jul 23, 2013 7:31:08 GMT 1
Well, I am a first division team and one with a YS. If you want decent secondairy skills, you need at least 15 on steering / balance. Then you see perception is not important, but that is also not correct. If you have a mountain trainer and your pull has 0 on flat and hill and 5 on mountain, the pull is pretty useless. From the 5 pulls, only 1 or 2 of them is usefull for the trainer you have. So the more picks, the better the cjance is that you have one usefull.
So, it is just a matter of opinion, and ours are different on this matter. At least you have one, and you always ground your opinion with good arguments, so it is well thought, but different than mine. I am not saying that mine is the right one, but that also counts for yours.
But that makes this game fantastic. Different opinions of how this game has to be played, and therefore different perspectives and different strategies.
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Post by kurtinsc on Jul 23, 2013 14:17:06 GMT 1
Well, I am a first division team and one with a YS. If you want decent secondairy skills, you need at least 15 on steering / balance. Then you see perception is not important, but that is also not correct. If you have a mountain trainer and your pull has 0 on flat and hill and 5 on mountain, the pull is pretty useless. From the 5 pulls, only 1 or 2 of them is usefull for the trainer you have. So the more picks, the better the cjance is that you have one usefull. So, it is just a matter of opinion, and ours are different on this matter. At least you have one, and you always ground your opinion with good arguments, so it is well thought, but different than mine. I am not saying that mine is the right one, but that also counts for yours. But that makes this game fantastic. Different opinions of how this game has to be played, and therefore different perspectives and different strategies. 1. Decent secondary skills... what is that? I think some of you are living in the old engine still. Back then, falls were devastating. Now... unless they happen at a really bad time or on a downhill they matter little. Helpers bring the rider back 95% of the time they fall. You're welcome to value secodaries highly, but I think you are incorrect about that with the current engine. Below 5 is still problematic, but even that isn't the end of the world. My top point-scorer last season had 7 steering and 4 balance. 2. Perception is important... if you need a pull every week. If you are not looking to PROFIT off your YS but rather are looking to get the extra training for young riders, then you don't need frequent pulls. Once you have filled your training spots the extra pulls will simply give you a little jump in profit. It's nice, but not worth increasing the cost of your scout a ton because profit isn't the goal... having 5 extra training spots at your TRAINER skill level (which is where you'll push the money) is. 3. It's kind of odd you try to make the last point about where the skills of your pulled rider are considering your trainer. You have 14+ (I assume you'll be training flat to 15 this next week so they'll be 15+) in every skill aside from hill (and you have 10 in fitness as well). And you're paying 365K... I believe you can be 15+ in EVERY skill with a couple spiked to 18 for less then 400K a month (the estimate you gave for a top YS). How would the initial skill layout matter with a trainer like that at all?
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Post by Genomico on Jul 23, 2013 14:21:19 GMT 1
1. Stages are won by attackers, and when they fall or get a flat tire it is devasting for them.
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Post by kurtinsc on Jul 23, 2013 15:02:27 GMT 1
1. Stages are won by attackers, and when they fall or get a flat tire it is devasting for them. Even that is less true then people think. I went through my league and looked at the winners and final groups of all the non-TT races for this year. 13 races were won by a rider who had a fall or flat. 9 more races had a rider who had a fall or flat in the final group. While I know it's possible some of these might have finished ahead without a fall... some also would still have been in the same final group that they lost the sprint from. 34 were won by riders with no fall/flat and had no fallen riders in the final group. So 40% of the races had a rider who fell finish in the final group of the race. While there's an impact there... I think it's clear that a bit more skill in the primaries probably HEAVILY outweighs 5-10 extra points in the secondaries. In the old engine, a fall or flat was a much bigger deal. Plus... I'm not sure the difference in falls/flats between a 5/5 and a 15/15 is all that significant. If you have 30 races... I think it may be in the range of 2-3 flats/falls difference total... and as you point out the real significance is only if those extra 2-3 happen to fall on a stage you are attacking on. I'm going to say the biggest the difference might be is ONE meaningful fall or flat per season... probably closer to one every 2 or 3 seasons.
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Post by Genomico on Jul 23, 2013 16:11:39 GMT 1
I've lost quite a few topresults by a flat tire or fall this season already, and I know I'm not the only one. And the secondary skills of most of my riders are very well, so it should be even worse for others (although many of the bad luck was because of downhill falls, and for that secondary skills indeed don't matter much).
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Post by kurtinsc on Jul 23, 2013 19:12:42 GMT 1
I've lost quite a few topresults by a flat tire or fall this season already, and I know I'm not the only one. And the secondary skills of most of my riders are very well, so it should be even worse for others (although many of the bad luck was because of downhill falls, and for that secondary skills indeed don't matter much). The question is would you take 5 points off of balance or steering to get one point extra in another stat of your choosing? I would. Those are nice skills to have for a rider but they are... secondary.
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Post by Genomico on Jul 23, 2013 20:51:13 GMT 1
Where did you state that question before? Perhaps I missed that, but I was only talking about that secondaries are still important (because all races and tours are won by attackers) and not about the comparison about their importance relative to primary skills. Ofc it's all about primary skills and giving your cyclists the maximum training, but with the secondary skills you can lower your bad luck.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Jul 24, 2013 8:43:23 GMT 1
Well, I am a first division team and one with a YS. If you want decent secondairy skills, you need at least 15 on steering / balance. Then you see perception is not important, but that is also not correct. If you have a mountain trainer and your pull has 0 on flat and hill and 5 on mountain, the pull is pretty useless. From the 5 pulls, only 1 or 2 of them is usefull for the trainer you have. So the more picks, the better the cjance is that you have one usefull. So, it is just a matter of opinion, and ours are different on this matter. At least you have one, and you always ground your opinion with good arguments, so it is well thought, but different than mine. I am not saying that mine is the right one, but that also counts for yours. But that makes this game fantastic. Different opinions of how this game has to be played, and therefore different perspectives and different strategies. 1. Decent secondary skills... what is that? I think some of you are living in the old engine still. Back then, falls were devastating. Now... unless they happen at a really bad time or on a downhill they matter little. Helpers bring the rider back 95% of the time they fall. You're welcome to value secodaries highly, but I think you are incorrect about that with the current engine. Below 5 is still problematic, but even that isn't the end of the world. My top point-scorer last season had 7 steering and 4 balance. 2. Perception is important... if you need a pull every week. If you are not looking to PROFIT off your YS but rather are looking to get the extra training for young riders, then you don't need frequent pulls. Once you have filled your training spots the extra pulls will simply give you a little jump in profit. It's nice, but not worth increasing the cost of your scout a ton because profit isn't the goal... having 5 extra training spots at your TRAINER skill level (which is where you'll push the money) is. 3. It's kind of odd you try to make the last point about where the skills of your pulled rider are considering your trainer. You have 14+ (I assume you'll be training flat to 15 this next week so they'll be 15+) in every skill aside from hill (and you have 10 in fitness as well). And you're paying 365K... I believe you can be 15+ in EVERY skill with a couple spiked to 18 for less then 400K a month (the estimate you gave for a top YS). How would the initial skill layout matter with a trainer like that at all? Kurtinsc, please, you have your opinion, I've got mine. And our opinions simply aren't the same. You gave your opinion, I gave mine, and now your repeating your opinion like you haven't read mine at all. And if your opinion is the truth. So I will react on this a last time. 1. Secondary skills. Genomico already reacted on that and I agree with him. In our division, we have had 0 sprints. All races are won by attackers. A flat and especially a fall is killing. 2. Perception. Maybe you think that with 5 training spots I need only 5 pulls, but I don't. I need a future star, which is a combination of the right length, weight, secondaries etc. The more pulls, the better the chance is. And nobody is looking to profit off the YS because you simply can't. YS always costs money. You can sell an incidental pull for a lot of money, but that is just an incident. Almost all pulls are sold for a price below the wage of the YS. So therefore, IN MY OPNION, perception is important. I am not looking for a pull, I am looking for thé pull. 3. Your opinion is probably for your own interest. Mine isn't. It is correct that I have a multi trainer, (I need it for the strategy I chose) but most teams don't. If you have a mountain - sprint trainer, a pull with 0-0-5-1-4-0 is pretty useless. With my trainer, I can train almost any rider, that is correct, but my opinion is for the interest of the game, not for the interest of me, so there is nothing odd in my point. Most teams with a YS haven't got the trainer I have.
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Post by kurtinsc on Jul 24, 2013 19:23:14 GMT 1
1. Decent secondary skills... what is that? I think some of you are living in the old engine still. Back then, falls were devastating. Now... unless they happen at a really bad time or on a downhill they matter little. Helpers bring the rider back 95% of the time they fall. You're welcome to value secodaries highly, but I think you are incorrect about that with the current engine. Below 5 is still problematic, but even that isn't the end of the world. My top point-scorer last season had 7 steering and 4 balance. 2. Perception is important... if you need a pull every week. If you are not looking to PROFIT off your YS but rather are looking to get the extra training for young riders, then you don't need frequent pulls. Once you have filled your training spots the extra pulls will simply give you a little jump in profit. It's nice, but not worth increasing the cost of your scout a ton because profit isn't the goal... having 5 extra training spots at your TRAINER skill level (which is where you'll push the money) is. 3. It's kind of odd you try to make the last point about where the skills of your pulled rider are considering your trainer. You have 14+ (I assume you'll be training flat to 15 this next week so they'll be 15+) in every skill aside from hill (and you have 10 in fitness as well). And you're paying 365K... I believe you can be 15+ in EVERY skill with a couple spiked to 18 for less then 400K a month (the estimate you gave for a top YS). How would the initial skill layout matter with a trainer like that at all? Kurtinsc, please, you have your opinion, I've got mine. And our opinions simply aren't the same. You gave your opinion, I gave mine, and now your repeating your opinion like you haven't read mine at all. And if your opinion is the truth. So I will react on this a last time. 1. Secondary skills. Genomico already reacted on that and I agree with him. In our division, we have had 0 sprints. All races are won by attackers. A flat and especially a fall is killing. 2. Perception. Maybe you think that with 5 training spots I need only 5 pulls, but I don't. I need a future star, which is a combination of the right length, weight, secondaries etc. The more pulls, the better the chance is. And nobody is looking to profit off the YS because you simply can't. YS always costs money. You can sell an incidental pull for a lot of money, but that is just an incident. Almost all pulls are sold for a price below the wage of the YS. So therefore, IN MY OPNION, perception is important. I am not looking for a pull, I am looking for thé pull. 3. Your opinion is probably for your own interest. Mine isn't. It is correct that I have a multi trainer, (I need it for the strategy I chose) but most teams don't. If you have a mountain - sprint trainer, a pull with 0-0-5-1-4-0 is pretty useless. With my trainer, I can train almost any rider, that is correct, but my opinion is for the interest of the game, not for the interest of me, so there is nothing odd in my point. Most teams with a YS haven't got the trainer I have. AB, forgive me if I come across as ignoring you, but until this post you've generally stated your opinion withough giving anything SUPPORTING that opinion. YOu stated "If you want decent secondairy skills, you need at least 15 on steering / balance. Then you see perception is not important, but that is also not correct." That IS an opinion... but there's nothing there to support it. You're just saying it as if it's obviously true. I'm giving responses with reasons why I disagree with your opinion. Evidence so that those running the site would be more likely to agree with me... because I DON'T agree with you. I'm not trying to convince you... I'm presenting my case with as much evidence as I can so that they hopefully agree with me and don't make the change you're asking for. When you give an opinion I disagree with... I'm going to give what facts and evidence I can to show that your opinion is incorrect. Again... not for your benefit, but because I'm trying to convince the decision makers NOT to do what you're asking for. I realize my opinion is an opinion as is yours. But I DO want to discredit your opinion and prove it wrong... because I don't want the change you've proposed to happen. I believe if it does it will become more difficult for teams to advance to the top levels of this game because teams already there (like yours) will be more difficult to unseat. I honestly want to make things a lot TOUGHER for teams like yours at the top.
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Post by kurtinsc on Jul 24, 2013 19:35:49 GMT 1
Where did you state that question before? Perhaps I missed that, but I was only talking about that secondaries are still important (because all races and tours are won by attackers) and not about the comparison about their importance relative to primary skills. Ofc it's all about primary skills and giving your cyclists the maximum training, but with the secondary skills you can lower your bad luck. Of course. Every stat is important to some degree. But the degree for secondaries is very, very low compared to even the least important primary skill. If you are looking at your team's weekly cost and you have to decide between upping the steering/balance of your YS by 5 points (10-15), or upping one of your trainer's primary skill attributes by 1 (15-16)... few will choose the YS. Everything is a trade off. And it should be... that's what makes the game interesting. You can make decisions with short term downsides in favor of long term benefit. But I still believe this proposal will eliminate some of that decision process... because teams will be able to build for the long term without sacrificing the short term. And that's BAD. I sacrificed a season under the old engine by training sprint. Didn't do well at all that year, but then I dominated the first year in the new engine because I was one of a very few teams who had done that. I haven't done that with TT... and I fully expect to get dominated by those who have trained TT a lot when the latest iteration of the engine gets released. I made a decision both times... once to look to the future, once to play for the present. It wouldnt' be good in either if teams could have done both.
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Post by aaabbbccc on Jul 26, 2013 19:56:49 GMT 1
What do you think about a steering and balance training for U21 ciclists? Young ciclists will increase their secondary skills each week but they can also increase their primary skills. The steering and balance skills will increase automatically to a point at a time until he get to ten. Excuse me if there are some errors but i'm not english.
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Post by aaabbbccc on Jul 26, 2013 20:00:13 GMT 1
In this way the U21 ciclists with good primary skill and bad secondary skill will be able to run without falling after ten weeks of training.
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