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Post by Ab Normaal on Apr 15, 2013 13:17:50 GMT 1
First of all, despite i like the idea, I think the 5 extra training spots perhps is too much, and it could only help the better teams in the longterm, so... What about having pulls in the youthscout from 17 to 19 years old, but starting at 0 skills. Any new youth found has to spend 16 weeks in the youth team, where he can receive training in whatever skill manager wants (12/16 of skill point per training with Current Ability = 0, 14/16 or 1 skillpoint per training with CA = 20) (maximum possible skill level at youthscout = 6) Having a youthscout would mean having a youthteam, where riders could only participate in U21 races. After those 16 weeks, the youth is promoted to main team where he can start to race with the big guys and still race U21 races if he still fits... I think it would make the youthscout more interactive (being able to design your own youth pull primary skills) and a bit more interesting, opening posibilities for the game, and taking into account U21 races (nearly useless just now, if adding several U21 races through the season it could be really fun and at least cover big part of expenses) It is actually not a bad idea, but probably too complicated to get this done before next season. What can be done is adding more U21 races. This is interesting for the teams with a YS and teams who invest in young riders. And then U21 races in all kind off terrains.
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Post by NikeBoy on Apr 15, 2013 14:33:17 GMT 1
First of all, despite i like the idea, I think the 5 extra training spots perhps is too much, and it could only help the better teams in the longterm, so... What about having pulls in the youthscout from 17 to 19 years old, but starting at 0 skills. Any new youth found has to spend 16 weeks in the youth team, where he can receive training in whatever skill manager wants (12/16 of skill point per training with Current Ability = 0, 14/16 or 1 skillpoint per training with CA = 20) (maximum possible skill level at youthscout = 6) Having a youthscout would mean having a youthteam, where riders could only participate in U21 races. After those 16 weeks, the youth is promoted to main team where he can start to race with the big guys and still race U21 races if he still fits... I think it would make the youthscout more interactive (being able to design your own youth pull primary skills) and a bit more interesting, opening posibilities for the game, and taking into account U21 races (nearly useless just now, if adding several U21 races through the season it could be really fun and at least cover big part of expenses) It is actually not a bad idea, but probably too complicated to get this done before next season. What can be done is adding more U21 races. This is interesting for the teams with a YS and teams who invest in young riders. And then U21 races in all kind off terrains. I was working on the new calender (much too late, I know... It should be available somewhere mid season) and I was planning to, besides adding more TT, also adding some more U21 races (although I only have 1 U21 in my squad)
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Post by Quatannens on Apr 15, 2013 17:52:56 GMT 1
The U21-races maybe has some potential, but it needs a lot of finetuning. Too many U21 races is not good, as it would't be realistic to have many youngsters just for those races. I see how it helps to get managers to train young cyclists, but the gap will be too big with the superstars. Also if youthscouts keep pulling cyclists that are too old for those races, there is something wrong imo I don't really know how we should promote training youth, but I wonder if it even is necessary. We aren't in a balance yet. The highest teams can still train their own cyclists if they are young enough. One season, the problem will be for those topteams to buy already skilled cyclists with a good FA (probably the most expensive cyclists in game at that moment). So the teams training those guys will be able to make a lot of money. No?
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Post by Ab Normaal on Apr 16, 2013 9:48:20 GMT 1
The U21-races maybe has some potential, but it needs a lot of finetuning. Too many U21 races is not good, as it would't be realistic to have many youngsters just for those races. I see how it helps to get managers to train young cyclists, but the gap will be too big with the superstars. Also if youthscouts keep pulling cyclists that are too old for those races, there is something wrong imo I don't really know how we should promote training youth, but I wonder if it even is necessary. We aren't in a balance yet. The highest teams can still train their own cyclists if they are young enough. One season, the problem will be for those topteams to buy already skilled cyclists with a good FA (probably the most expensive cyclists in game at that moment). So the teams training those guys will be able to make a lot of money. No? Train young cyclists when you are in a high division is an investment. It will take at least 5 years of training before a young cyclist becomes competitive in division 1 or 2. And if you train 5 young cyclist, it means that you can only train 20 others who have to earn the points for you. So it is an investment. That is 5 less than teams who do not make that choice. To make up for that, I think it is fair to have about 5 U21 races on the calendar. Since I started this thread I followed it closely and we are close to the end of the season. Everybody has an opinion but a lot is said and nothing done. I suggest following: For next season 2 things change: 1. Scouts only pull 18 and 19 years old 2. More U21 races on the calandar (let's say, 5) Then we are working on a fair system for 5 extra training spots for teams with a YS for OWN pulls until they reach the age of 21. Or, if there are better ideas, a better ideas. This should be agreed upon, and communicated, mid next season so everybody can prepare. How does this sound?
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Post by kurtinsc on Apr 16, 2013 13:09:03 GMT 1
The U21-races maybe has some potential, but it needs a lot of finetuning. Too many U21 races is not good, as it would't be realistic to have many youngsters just for those races. I see how it helps to get managers to train young cyclists, but the gap will be too big with the superstars. Also if youthscouts keep pulling cyclists that are too old for those races, there is something wrong imo I don't really know how we should promote training youth, but I wonder if it even is necessary. We aren't in a balance yet. The highest teams can still train their own cyclists if they are young enough. One season, the problem will be for those topteams to buy already skilled cyclists with a good FA (probably the most expensive cyclists in game at that moment). So the teams training those guys will be able to make a lot of money. No? Train young cyclists when you are in a high division is an investment. It will take at least 5 years of training before a young cyclist becomes competitive in division 1 or 2. And if you train 5 young cyclist, it means that you can only train 20 others who have to earn the points for you. So it is an investment. That is 5 less than teams who do not make that choice. To make up for that, I think it is fair to have about 5 U21 races on the calendar. Since I started this thread I followed it closely and we are close to the end of the season. Everybody has an opinion but a lot is said and nothing done. I suggest following: For next season 2 things change: 1. Scouts only pull 18 and 19 years old 2. More U21 races on the calandar (let's say, 5) Then we are working on a fair system for 5 extra training spots for teams with a YS for OWN pulls until they reach the age of 21. Or, if there are better ideas, a better ideas. This should be agreed upon, and communicated, mid next season so everybody can prepare. How does this sound? I agree with the changes for next season. Before we chage the training spots, let's see how it pans out with just those two changes for a couple of seasons. I'm not convinced those are necessary. While we want to make a youth scout attractive, we do not want to make it overpowered. Incremental changes would work best to make sure that doesn't happen.
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Post by goof on Apr 17, 2013 15:58:54 GMT 1
I didn't vote but my opinion goes to B. It is a good idea, but 30 cyclists in a team sounds so much. I think that all pulled youngsters should be able to compete in the U21 games, so that their age should be 18-20. Also, it would make sense if pulled cyclists with a slightly lower current ability are on average younger than cyclists with a slightly higher current ability. This way the 20 year olds won't become useless in comparable with the 18 year olds. However, this seems pretty difficcult to implement to me. And four or five U21 races sounds ideal to me. Another idea that I find interesting for the youtscout is the additional ability to scout on a future abilty. For example: if you search for a sprinter, the youthcout will find a cyclist with a FA>10 on sprint. The chance of finding such a cyclist should be much lower though.
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Post by Quatannens on Apr 17, 2013 21:44:25 GMT 1
I think adding U21 races and giving extra training spots is an advantage that is way to big. Only the 5 trainingspots already give 20% extra training, which is huge. I would only select one of them. Or more U21 races, or extra trainingspots... And to be honest, I don't see how the transfermarket for youngsters would get better from this. People still don't want young cyclists, because they'll have to use a trainingspot for a normal cyclist. If it is just to give youthscouts better chances other changes could be done. The wage really needs to lower. In real life everybody can find a talent. Rich teams have more chances, but most likely they just 'steal' talents from teams who can't keep them.
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Post by goof on Apr 18, 2013 18:27:26 GMT 1
I think adding U21 races and giving extra training spots is an advantage that is way to big. Only the 5 trainingspots already give 20% extra training, which is huge. I would only select one of them. Or more U21 races, or extra trainingspots... And to be honest, I don't see how the transfermarket for youngsters would get better from this. People still don't want young cyclists, because they'll have to use a trainingspot for a normal cyclist. If it is just to give youthscouts better chances other changes could be done. The wage really needs to lower. In real life everybody can find a talent. Rich teams have more chances, but most likely they just 'steal' talents from teams who can't keep them. The extra training spots are only for pulled youngsters. But I have my doubts too. If this idea comes through, most teams with a youth scout will have about 30 cyclists, which means that they can make six different teams instead of five at the same cost. This will give a huge advantage to rich teams who can afford a youth scout. m SoI think that this change will only biggen the gap between 'newcoming' teams in lower divisions and rich (and succesfull) teams in the higher divisions. You can make the youth scout more attractive in other ways, like lowering the wage or add an extra feature, and most important to me: improve the steering/bravery of pulled cyclists a bit! There are way too many cyclists with useless secundaries!
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Post by Ab Normaal on Apr 18, 2013 21:33:10 GMT 1
I think adding U21 races and giving extra training spots is an advantage that is way to big. Only the 5 trainingspots already give 20% extra training, which is huge. I would only select one of them. Or more U21 races, or extra trainingspots... And to be honest, I don't see how the transfermarket for youngsters would get better from this. People still don't want young cyclists, because they'll have to use a trainingspot for a normal cyclist. If it is just to give youthscouts better chances other changes could be done. The wage really needs to lower. In real life everybody can find a talent. Rich teams have more chances, but most likely they just 'steal' talents from teams who can't keep them. The extra training spots are only for pulled youngsters. But I have my doubts too. If this idea comes through, most teams with a youth scout will have about 30 cyclists, which means that they can make six different teams instead of five at the same cost. This will give a huge advantage to rich teams who can afford a youth scout. m SoI think that this change will only biggen the gap between 'newcoming' teams in lower divisions and rich (and succesfull) teams in the higher divisions. You can make the youth scout more attractive in other ways, like lowering the wage or add an extra feature, and most important to me: improve the steering/bravery of pulled cyclists a bit! There are way too many cyclists with useless secundaries! That is not really correct. The 5 extra spots are for own pulls from 18 - 20 years old. A pull has 10 skill points. I think the average skill points a cyclist rises per seaon is about 3. So if a rider of 18 has been pulled at the beginning of the season, he has gained 9 or 10 skill points untill he has to be removed from the extra training spots. He then has 20 skill points. I think we can all agree that he then is still useless for first or second division. Division where most riders have at least 25 skill points and often a minimum of 11 in one skill. Especially when we are 2 seasons further, with perhaps cyclists with skill 17 or 18 in one terrain. So, if you are in first or second division, you simply can't afford to have 5 "useless" cyclists and only 20 who have to earn ypur points and money. Especially when 4 from the 12 teams relegate. And when they become 21, they still are useless for you, but then you can choose to either sell them or keep them. Are you keeping them, then you have to put this cyclist, who still is useless, into your "normal" training pool. So the maximum of usefull riders is 25. So mixing 6 different teams is not correct at all. If you don't do anything about this, none of the bigger teams will never take a YS and since they are richer, buy all interesting 22 yo on the market.
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Post by kurtinsc on Apr 19, 2013 0:50:35 GMT 1
The extra training spots are only for pulled youngsters. But I have my doubts too. If this idea comes through, most teams with a youth scout will have about 30 cyclists, which means that they can make six different teams instead of five at the same cost. This will give a huge advantage to rich teams who can afford a youth scout. m SoI think that this change will only biggen the gap between 'newcoming' teams in lower divisions and rich (and succesfull) teams in the higher divisions. You can make the youth scout more attractive in other ways, like lowering the wage or add an extra feature, and most important to me: improve the steering/bravery of pulled cyclists a bit! There are way too many cyclists with useless secundaries! That is not really correct. The 5 extra spots are for own pulls from 18 - 20 years old. A pull has 10 skill points. I think the average skill points a cyclist rises per seaon is about 3. So if a rider of 18 has been pulled at the beginning of the season, he has gained 9 or 10 skill points untill he has to be removed from the extra training spots. He then has 20 skill points. I think we can all agree that he then is still useless for first or second division. Division where most riders have at least 25 skill points and often a minimum of 11 in one skill. Especially when we are 2 seasons further, with perhaps cyclists with skill 17 or 18 in one terrain. So, if you are in first or second division, you simply can't afford to have 5 "useless" cyclists and only 20 who have to earn ypur points and money. Especially when 4 from the 12 teams relegate. And when they become 21, they still are useless for you, but then you can choose to either sell them or keep them. Are you keeping them, then you have to put this cyclist, who still is useless, into your "normal" training pool. So the maximum of usefull riders is 25. So mixing 6 different teams is not correct at all. If you don't do anything about this, none of the bigger teams will never take a YS and since they are richer, buy all interesting 22 yo on the market. No, if it's profitable to have a youth scout and sell the pulls on the open market, top teams still will get ayouth scout. Those riders will just be developed by lower division teams that can get some use out of them while they are developed. Then after training, the team developing them can either sell them for a profit on the market, or keep them to build their team around. I'm not sure there's a problem with that. A top division team using spots to keep young riders will obviously be racing for U21 races and white jersey's in tours. That's also a valid strategy, and gives a team who's top riders can't seem to win in the top division another method of having success. SOMEONE will chase white jerseys in division 1, and that makes U21 riders not useless. There is obviously a strong market for younger cyclists. Have you seen how 18 and 19 year olds with relatively small skills go for pretty high prices now? I have 3 19 year olds on my team. One was at the end of his 18 year old year when I bought him (VERY end) and he cost me 380K (6-flat). One was 19 and bought a week ago and cost me 500K (7 sprint). One was 19 at the beginning of the season and cost me 170K (7 mountain). I've bowed out of many other 18 and 19 year old bidding wars where the price got above 500K. I'm still sitting on the side of believing that just limiting pulls to 18 and 19 year olds is enough... perhaps with 3-5 U21 races a year rather then just 1. I think the extra training spots will make the youthscout "overpowered"... in addition to likely being a difficult change in terms of programming. If it still isn't working in a couple of seasons, I'd still wait to add the extra training costs... instead I'd lower the price of the youth scout.
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Post by Quatannens on Apr 19, 2013 7:52:10 GMT 1
Or maybe just add some prizemoney to those youngster jerseys. If I remember correct now it is just points, but you can't pay cyclists with only points
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Post by Ab Normaal on Apr 19, 2013 9:07:03 GMT 1
That is not really correct. The 5 extra spots are for own pulls from 18 - 20 years old. A pull has 10 skill points. I think the average skill points a cyclist rises per seaon is about 3. So if a rider of 18 has been pulled at the beginning of the season, he has gained 9 or 10 skill points untill he has to be removed from the extra training spots. He then has 20 skill points. I think we can all agree that he then is still useless for first or second division. Division where most riders have at least 25 skill points and often a minimum of 11 in one skill. Especially when we are 2 seasons further, with perhaps cyclists with skill 17 or 18 in one terrain. So, if you are in first or second division, you simply can't afford to have 5 "useless" cyclists and only 20 who have to earn ypur points and money. Especially when 4 from the 12 teams relegate. And when they become 21, they still are useless for you, but then you can choose to either sell them or keep them. Are you keeping them, then you have to put this cyclist, who still is useless, into your "normal" training pool. So the maximum of usefull riders is 25. So mixing 6 different teams is not correct at all. If you don't do anything about this, none of the bigger teams will never take a YS and since they are richer, buy all interesting 22 yo on the market. No, if it's profitable to have a youth scout and sell the pulls on the open market, top teams still will get ayouth scout. Those riders will just be developed by lower division teams that can get some use out of them while they are developed. Then after training, the team developing them can either sell them for a profit on the market, or keep them to build their team around. I'm not sure there's a problem with that. A top division team using spots to keep young riders will obviously be racing for U21 races and white jersey's in tours. That's also a valid strategy, and gives a team who's top riders can't seem to win in the top division another method of having success. SOMEONE will chase white jerseys in division 1, and that makes U21 riders not useless. There is obviously a strong market for younger cyclists. Have you seen how 18 and 19 year olds with relatively small skills go for pretty high prices now? I have 3 19 year olds on my team. One was at the end of his 18 year old year when I bought him (VERY end) and he cost me 380K (6-flat). One was 19 and bought a week ago and cost me 500K (7 sprint). One was 19 at the beginning of the season and cost me 170K (7 mountain). I've bowed out of many other 18 and 19 year old bidding wars where the price got above 500K. I'm still sitting on the side of believing that just limiting pulls to 18 and 19 year olds is enough... perhaps with 3-5 U21 races a year rather then just 1. I think the extra training spots will make the youthscout "overpowered"... in addition to likely being a difficult change in terms of programming. If it still isn't working in a couple of seasons, I'd still wait to add the extra training costs... instead I'd lower the price of the youth scout. I understand your opinion. It is also a way to see it and in a few seasons we can tell who is right. But like Quantannen said. You don't get money for white jerseys and not much points eather. The reason that a lot of young cyclists were sold last week, was for the U21 race. The rest of the season the prices weren't that high. I bought 3 18 yo at the beginning of this season, almost for nothing, and I have seen (since I followed it this season) only a few 18 you sold for a lot of money. The only way to make having young cyclist make interesting is either extra training spots or either more U21 races. I think we agree on the age of the pulls of a YS. Having one of 20 isn't interesting at all, and I think we all agree that this should be changed in the new season immediately. And the steering and Balance should be a little higher. You can't do anything with a combination 0/0. It takes too long to get that in a deasant level. If it ever comes to a deasant level...
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Post by Quatannens on Apr 19, 2013 10:53:11 GMT 1
Right now those 18-year old cyclists aren't important yet, but this is because there is a great unbalance. Nobody needs them right now, you can train your perfectly trained cyclists for a while and get much better results. Once those cyclists will start to get old teams will need new cyclists. Which cyclists are this going to be? Right, the ones that are now 18-20 old are still have to be pulled next seasons. If there won't be enough young cyclists, the prices will be high anyway. So you'll have bought those cyclists for nothing and be able to sell them for high prices. You get a lot of transfermoney, but less raceincomes. You have to choose what you want, or find a balance in your own team. I honestly don't think there should be structural changes, but as said before youthscout wages, money for white jersey and some more stages for youngsters would be nice. (Also: Why is the youngsterjersey U21? In real life it is almost always U25 or something like that...)
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Post by Genomico on Apr 19, 2013 12:31:32 GMT 1
The youthscout is still useless without the extra trainingspots. It's a perfect idea. Now the 18 year old cyclists will hardly be trained and thus never being able to the 22+ year old cyclists. This creates a 'gap' in the game that can be solved a bit by the extra trainingspots.
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Post by kurtinsc on Apr 19, 2013 15:42:49 GMT 1
The youthscout is still useless without the extra trainingspots. It's a perfect idea. Now the 18 year old cyclists will hardly be trained and thus never being able to the 22+ year old cyclists. This creates a 'gap' in the game that can be solved a bit by the extra trainingspots. That gap can also be fixed with more U21 races. If you have U21 races, then there is a reason to have those young riders that you use regular training spots on. So those riders will be trained. You'll have some u21's at the high levels to compete for the U21 races in those leagues. You'll have more U21's being trained in lower leagues because the riders won't be as good, so a young guy can compete. And those teams will be able to sell them once they become "good enough" to higher division teams for big profit in order to upgrade their teams. If everyone with a trainer gets 5 training spots, you take that market away. It makes it HARDER for the lower teams I think... it gives the teams that are already strong another advantage. I WANT teams in division 1 and 2 to have to think hard about training youngsters. I want there to be a tradeoff. It shouldn't be easy. The lower division teams should be training youngsters and the upper teams (if they don't want to lose training spots for their older guys) will have to spend their money to get younger guys who have been trained up... not to have a "farm system" build in to their team at a lower cost. I really think adding the free training spots for a YS would more firmly entrench the top teams at the top and make it harder for newer teams to make their way up.
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