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Post by goof on Jan 21, 2014 13:09:03 GMT 1
Lately, I begin to think more and more that the new engine could use some revision. Here a few of my statements. 1: Attacking is too powerful (in flat stages)Now that most cyclists have received some training on sprint and flat, I see an astromonic increase in succesfull attacks, even in flat stages. Flat stages finishing with a (big) sprint are rare. From the six flat stages so far, none of them ended with big sprint. There were always multiple (3-5) attackers who ended before the big group, even though there are better cyclists (sprinters!) in the big group with quite a few helpers. 2: Individuals should be more disadvanted (in flat stages) Coming back to point 1, I see many cyclists who finish before the big group in their own. This is not very realistic for flat stages. I would say that a group with 10 helpers with flat 5 and TT 2 should be able to catch up an individual attacker with flat 8 and TT 3. His attempt should work sometimes, but not as often as now. 3: The option 'General Standings' (Klassement) should be made a bit more powerful and cost one pointI tried this option a few times and didn't notice much. Besides, I also don't understand why this option is free. Helpers are always there to minimize the time loss of the cyclists who want to aim for a good general standings IRL. That's the most important task of helpers.  I don't know how this option works now, but I would propose something like this: you have three helpers with these skills 10-1-2-1-2-5,4-6-4-2-1-1 and 1-2-11-2-1-1 and you've got one man for the general standings. Why not give that man 5% of the skills of the helpers extra for the terrain he's riding on if the helpers are in his same group? For flat terrain for example:(10+1+2)*0.05=0.65, hill: (1+6+2)*0,05=0.4, mountain: (2+11+4)*0.05 = 0.85 etc. 4: The option 'Save Fitness' should cost 3 tactic points instead of 4I find this option just too expensive since you only save 4% per time and occasionally have to use it. This is my opionion, but if we all agree, Nikeboy and IP could think to adjust some things for next season. Please let me know your opinion!  |
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Post by rarau on Jan 21, 2014 14:03:32 GMT 1
1/2 you are right, i have the same impression BUT our group 4.8 is too easy. The BIG important thing is that helpers DON'T count if you have an attacker. So we could finish on a mass sprint only if i want (because i have the best flat players from our group). For finish on a mass sprint, for example in 1.1, then 6/7 teams need to have Final sprinter + helpers. Teams with flat 10 or better. In our group is impossible to have final sprinters in one day races/3 days races. Maybe in France we could have  3. I use few times, it looks good (i use today with a climber), but i dont have an impression about. Maybe it need to cost 1p. 4. Is not expensive. If you cannot afford buy/train a cyclists to be your captain. When you want to use it?? You use only in Italy, France and Spain. |
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Post by goof on Jan 21, 2014 14:22:47 GMT 1
1/2 you are right, i have the same impression BUT our group 4.8 is too easy. The BIG important thing is that helpers DON'T count if you have an attacker. So we could finish on a mass sprint only if i want (because i have the best flat players from our group). For finish on a mass sprint, for example in 1.1, then 6/7 teams need to have Final sprinter + helpers. Teams with flat 10 or better. In our group is impossible to have final sprinters in one day races/3 days races. Maybe in France we could have 3. I use few times, it looks good (i use today with a climber), but i dont have an impression about. Maybe it need to cost 1p. 4. Is not expensive. If you cannot afford buy/train a cyclists to be your captain. When you want to use it?? You use only in Italy, France and Spain. You're right about our division, but I checked division 1:1 and it seems even worse there. The first 10-20 cyclists finish in (short) flat stages alone or in tiny groups, before the bigger group. But regarding the 'Save Fitness'...maybe I don't have enough cyclists with strong leadership.  |
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Post by Ab Normaal on Jan 21, 2014 14:26:36 GMT 1
1/2 you are right, i have the same impression BUT our group 4.8 is too easy. The BIG important thing is that helpers DON'T count if you have an attacker. So we could finish on a mass sprint only if i want (because i have the best flat players from our group). For finish on a mass sprint, for example in 1.1, then 6/7 teams need to have Final sprinter + helpers. Teams with flat 10 or better. In our group is impossible to have final sprinters in one day races/3 days races. Maybe in France we could have 3. I use few times, it looks good (i use today with a climber), but i dont have an impression about. Maybe it need to cost 1p. 4. Is not expensive. If you cannot afford buy/train a cyclists to be your captain. When you want to use it?? You use only in Italy, France and Spain. You're right about our division, but I checked division 1:1 and it seems even worse there. The first 10-20 cyclists finish in (short) flat stages alone or in tiny groups, before the bigger group. But regarding the 'Save Fitness'...maybe I don't have enough cyclists with strong leadership. In 1:1 there hasn't been a single race that ended up in a mass sprint, except the stages without attackpoints. Even if you use 4 helpers you cannot get a single attacker back. |
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Post by rarau on Jan 21, 2014 14:29:03 GMT 1
1/2 you are right, i have the same impression BUT our group 4.8 is too easy. The BIG important thing is that helpers DON'T count if you have an attacker. So we could finish on a mass sprint only if i want (because i have the best flat players from our group). For finish on a mass sprint, for example in 1.1, then 6/7 teams need to have Final sprinter + helpers. Teams with flat 10 or better. In our group is impossible to have final sprinters in one day races/3 days races. Maybe in France we could have 3. I use few times, it looks good (i use today with a climber), but i dont have an impression about. Maybe it need to cost 1p. 4. Is not expensive. If you cannot afford buy/train a cyclists to be your captain. When you want to use it?? You use only in Italy, France and Spain. You're right about our division, but I checked division 1:1 and it seems even worse there. The first 10-20 cyclists finish in (short) flat stages alone or in tiny groups, before the bigger group. But regarding the 'Save Fitness'...maybe I don't have enough cyclists with strong leadership. MAYBE teams from 1.1 don't want to finish that race on a mass sprint/final sprinter If i have an attacker my helpers speed dont count. My helpers don help peloton. SO only if 7-8 teams from 1.1 want MASS sprint will be. If only 1 team want will not be an mass sprint. What happens when no GC and no Final Sprinter is chosen ? Helpers will stay with the most upfront attacker. (ofcourse, when this attacker is in front of the peloton, helpers will just stay in the peloton, like they do in the current engine)
Peloton speed : only the best helpers will determine the pelotonspeed. In the current engine each helpers and each cyclist in the peloton has an influence on the peloton speed. Next season, the speed will be determined by the best helpers in the peloton. As a consequence, the speed of the peloton will be higher. Group speed. The same applies for a group speed. The speed of an attacking group (or group behind the peloton) will be determined by the best skilled cyclists in that group. Time Trial influence in the mountain parts. Time trial will become more important in the mountain parts. In flat parts, cyclists in a group can draft behind other riders so they can, almost freewheeling, produce the same speed as the group. In these cases it is not important that you can paddle with a constant pace (time trial). However in the mountain, this draft is barely applicable, so each rider needs to produce a certain pace (time trial). This is why TT becomes more important in the mountain parts. * Sprint influence. In the current engine, sprint is a too dominant factor in each intermediate and final sprint. For mountain and hill sprints, the main skill will have more influence. |
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Post by rarau on Jan 21, 2014 14:33:46 GMT 1
4. Is not expensive. If you cannot afford buy/train a cyclists to be your captain. When you want to use it?? You use only in Italy, France and Spain. You're right about our division, but I checked division 1:1 and it seems even worse there. The first 10-20 cyclists finish in (short) flat stages alone or in tiny groups, before the bigger group. But regarding the 'Save Fitness'...maybe I don't have enough cyclists with strong leadership. You don't need a lot of cyclists to be captains. Only 1 or 2. But this cyclist will be only your captain. Don't choose your star to be captain. He need only LS to be captain. |
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Post by heppie on Jan 21, 2014 14:48:23 GMT 1
I also agree on point 1 and 2. Especially attackers with a descent TT skill can stay rather easy in front of the peloton. Also the fact that a mass sprint is always won by the best sprinter in competition makes that teams a lot of teams will attack. Because of these 2 things, nearly every team attacks at the beginning of a stage with a cyclist else he couldn't win or finish on a high position. This causes that there are nearly no helpers to get the peloton going so attackers can get a lot of time.
However we must be careful in adapting this else we get only mass sprints. I think attackers should have a chance to stay in front of the peloton, but it must be possible to arrange a mass sprint in flat stages even if the teams that want a mass sprint don't have the best flat cyclists.
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Post by goof on Jan 21, 2014 14:51:01 GMT 1
Peloton speed : only the best helpers will determine the pelotonspeed. In the current engine each helpers and each cyclist in the peloton has an influence on the peloton speed. Next season, the speed will be determined by the best helpers in the peloton. As a consequence, the speed of the peloton will be higher. Group speed. The same applies for a group speed. The speed of an attacking group (or group behind the peloton) will be determined by the best skilled cyclists in that group. Time Trial influence in the mountain parts. Time trial will become more important in the mountain parts. In flat parts, cyclists in a group can draft behind other riders so they can, almost freewheeling, produce the same speed as the group. In these cases it is not important that you can paddle with a constant pace (time trial). However in the mountain, this draft is barely applicable, so each rider needs to produce a certain pace (time trial). This is why TT becomes more important in the mountain parts. * Sprint influence. In the current engine, sprint is a too dominant factor in each intermediate and final sprint. For mountain and hill sprints, the main skill will have more influence. Yes, but these changes haven't been implemented or tested in the funraces yet? |
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Post by punkska on Jan 21, 2014 18:11:37 GMT 1
I think I agree with all the points in the OP. I think my biggest issues currently are: 1/ the helper not reducing a time-gap if you have an attacker out front thing which sometimes(/often?) leads to gaps that are too big (e.g. division 2:1, the first stage of Paris - Nice, 14 minutes) Anyone in the main peloton had no chance of making up the gap in the next two stages. I can't be sure but I think I had 2 helpers and someone marked "GC" in it, if I didn't, I'm sure someone else had a GC guy in there. 2/ You basically have to attack at the first attack point now to win a stage, heppie touched on this (good luck this season btw ), otherwise you risk a group getting ahead that you'll never catch. 3/ As a result of point 2, 2 or 3 of your teams cyclists actually become pointless? We might as well just be entering 2 or 3 cyclists into races - a leader, a helper and an attacker. Maybe I'm just frustrated with this one currently due to the make-up of my squad, but I'm ending up with high skilled cyclists just coasting in the pack due to the lack of options. (this next paragraph possibly doesn't make sense, apologies/ feel free to skip it) Maybe there needs to be two types of helpers or something, or for us to be able to customise the order in which they help. Situation: 2 helpers, 2 attackers, 1 GC guy. Attacker 1 goes out front, helpers then help attacker 2 (the one you want to win the race) so keep the pack close enough; Attacker 2 tries to break away at a later point, helpers then stick with the GC guy (aand after I've written this out I think they basically do this already, just minus an instruction to keep the peloton speed high even if you have an attacker out front); Attacker 1 becomes a helper for attacker 2 if/when he joins with him. I don't know if they can/do act that way currently? I like to think in a 3 person group if two of the riders are from one team they'll have an advantage, but I have no idea. |
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Post by goof on Jan 21, 2014 18:54:44 GMT 1
Thanks for your opinion. I understand that the helpers keep the pace of the peloton down if an attacker is up front. However, if there are for example ten (solo) attackers and your man is seventh and is several minutes behind, I think that your helpers should try to close the gap anyway. Certainly if you have a sprinter in the peloton who has a fair chance to win a final sprint. But attacking early seems an advantage indeed. I don't know if that makes sense...
Maybe it is an option two reduce the number of attack points in very flat stages to two/ three at the beginning and one at the end or even remove them when possible?
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Post by rarau on Jan 22, 2014 10:50:49 GMT 1
1/ the helper not reducing a time-gap if you have an attacker out front thing which sometimes(/often?) leads to gaps that are too big (e.g. division 2:1, the first stage of Paris - Nice, 14 minutes) Anyone in the main peloton had no chance of making up the gap in the next two stages. I can't be sure but I think I had 2 helpers and someone marked "GC" in it, if I didn't, I'm sure someone else had a GC guy in there. 3/ As a result of point 2, 2 or 3 of your teams cyclists actually become pointless? We might as well just be entering 2 or 3 cyclists into races - a leader, a helper and an attacker. Maybe I'm just frustrated with this one currently due to the make-up of my squad, but I'm ending up with high skilled cyclists just coasting in the pack due to the lack of options. 4/Maybe there needs to be two types of helpers or something, or for us to be able to customise the order in which they help. 1/ maybe in this race attacked only cyclists with 0 mountain? If yes is normal, for me, this time. All players not trained 1-2 skills (mountain, dounhill) probably is far better then other trained in all skills. Think at Malton but in the other way. Why Malton is number 1 ?? Those cyclists are Malton for races without mountain GC is like in this example. I play 3 3 12 2 2 5 for general standings. Is a flat race. The GC tactic hill HELP him to stay IN THE PELOTON because he is not a flat guy and NOT to brink back the attackers. For bring back is FINAL SPRINTER. GC (and save fitness) is for France, Italy and Spain not for other races. 3/ A helper DONT HELP an attacker. A helper HELP a GC or a final sprinter. (see what i post earlier/rules) Maybe in ONE DAY races you dont need 5 cyclists. But in 3 day or big tours you need 10 cyclists not 5  In 3 days race you could use a leader, 1-2 attacker, 1 or more helpers, maybe final sprinter, 1-2 u21 and so on. 4/ this game, in my opinion, is already complicate, i think some active users have too much time for this game. Not all users could afford to spent a lot of time in this game. If someone have too much time could : -be more active on transfer list -help us helping users from division 5-7 with advices, telling them about this forum -making some funraces like was in the past with a lot of classaments -a lot of statistics. Example number of cyclists from a team, what kind of trainer have first 4 division, who have best time in France / Mantes La Jolie - Orleans etc -see a movie / spent time with his family |
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Post by rarau on Jan 22, 2014 11:08:40 GMT 1
Maybe it is an option two reduce the number of attack points in very flat stages to two/ three at the beginning and one at the end or even remove them when possible? First i'm a SPRINT team. I have a lot of cyclists (almost all) with +7 sprint So for me is ok/better to have MASS sprint at the end. Ok and if will be 2 or 3 AP what will be the difference? We have 5 races without attack points. Few? I think yes, are few, but for that you need to spoke with ElGringo/Nike and next season could be more. Please understand, for all, we need to have races for flat trainers too. Not only for mountain and tt trainers. p.s. now i train almost only tt, in the future mountain, so last sentence will not help me anyway |
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 22, 2014 11:11:38 GMT 1
The main problem now is that everyone is attacking. Helpers do her job, the problem is that the majority of helpers are weaker then the attackers.
Not all riders that place an attack in the 1st 2nd attacking point win the stage. If you have a strong team you could set your helpers to close the gap and then you place your attack. We see this in some flat stages and majority in mountain stages.
For example, today I set my best mountain rider as helper 15.4M so this way he will close the gap for the riders attacking, of if I have my own rider attacking he will set the pace for my GC rider in peloton this way the peloton don't lose a big time and in other hand if the peloton is rolling the weaker riders in that terrain will be left behind.
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 22, 2014 11:22:45 GMT 1
Related to the stages and kind of terrain, we alreay put more sprint stages 5 and if you pay attention the majority of stages reduces the number of attacking points, offcourse for this we need time and this gives work.
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Post by Slayer772004 on Jan 22, 2014 12:42:41 GMT 1
Its perfect like it is right now: 5 sprinter stages. If you put more races like that, everybody start training sprint again, just like 3 seasons ago. And then the attacking teams start to complain.
The sprint stages are too boring, cos nothing happens. So if you want to have fun and excitement: don't add more sprintstages.
And in real cycling, flat races like Ronde van Vlaanderen or Paris-Roubaix don't end in a sprint too. In the small tours like TDU, Eneco, Qinghai, ... ok, there you can put a sprintrace. But most big races, an attacker wins.
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