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Post by Mike on Jul 25, 2009 16:32:47 GMT 1
So in that way it's not stupid It's even logical
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Post by droopy on Jul 25, 2009 17:28:29 GMT 1
Isn't it possible to 'cancel' the helper tactic if a team mate rides in front (program with time diff, possible?). Otherwise there will be ridiculous situations. By implementing this you can also use the real life tactic: sending someone in an early escape and give your team mates some rest. If the peloton catches the leaders, your helpers can ride for your sprinter. The speed will increase significant. That's indeed possible, but what will happen when you plan an attack with another cyclist later on in the race ? Will the helpers still try to increase the peloton's speed or not. If not, the chances that the second attacker will win a race decreases as he will have to close a bigger gap. The one attacking later in the race has to rely on other teams to win the stage (I agree he'll be trapped by the team tactics, but that's realistic), Not always the best cyclist will win, often there is a battle on two fronts: one for the stage, and one for the 'yellow' jersey If you want to avoid that Boonen or Contador becomes a victim of the tactic. Maybe an extra option 'absolute protection/best cyclist'. But 'Rabo-Langeveld-Haussler situations' are very rare. When I understand correctly you'll be able to give different orders to a cyclist (depending on the leadership qualities of the team): maybe the combination (early)attack/helper will make a situation possible that a good helper will be able to help in a late stadium in the race (Like VDB tried to do for Cadel ) If a helper is in the same group as the attacker, he will always help. If a team mate tries to make a jump. The team mates in the leading group will stop helping (and get an attack/sprint bonus), until the other attacker reaches the leading group or is catched again by the peloton. I realize this will not always be the most realistic situation, but it will improve the RE at least. I admire the plans, but it will be a very difficult task. Now we can use our imagination (race reports from managers), just try to avoid ridiculous race situations, sometimes less is more. It's a very good idea to test this in funraces, I think it will take a while. Don't get me wrong: I support this. The attack points have to be limited to avoid this. And what if the escaped cyclist is riding a good final standing? If the gap is too big, a good cyclist (trapped by team tactics) will be able to get a good top 10 result. And he can do this if the gap is big enough, he'll stay friend with his leading team mate. Not everyone who attacks has to be in the final escape, only the best will, maybe form different groups and form a good leading group after the next hill. You can create a nice story... In the situation (Nikeboy described) some cyclists will stop helping, but others will counter attack/start helping the peloton. In my opinion also realistic: someone attacks-> speed peloton goes up; after the attack: the peloton has to search a new organisation --> speed goes down; New situation: depending on the qualities of the helpers the speed will go up or down... Another remark, will it be considered cheating if you agree with an another team to attack at the same point? Another question: will the helpers improve the speed of the peloton always the same? or (more realistic) will the speed drop after a while (as the speed in the attacking group)
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Post by droopy on Jul 25, 2009 17:42:45 GMT 1
But when will your best helper place this counter attack ? When the next cyclists attacks ? yes, if the attacking cyclist is stronger, he will go his own way. If the helper is stronger they will go together. The helper, not helping the attacking cyclist. Nice, a bit more random would be interesting.
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Post by NikeBoy on Jul 25, 2009 17:44:35 GMT 1
That's indeed possible, but what will happen when you plan an attack with another cyclist later on in the race ? Will the helpers still try to increase the peloton's speed or not. If not, the chances that the second attacker will win a race decreases as he will have to close a bigger gap. The one attacking later in the race has to rely on other teams to win the stage (I agree he'll be trapped by the team tactics, but that's realistic), Not always the best cyclist will win, often there is a battle on two fronts: one for the stage, and one for the 'yellow' jersey If you want to avoid that Boonen or Contador becomes a victim of the tactic. Maybe an extra option 'absolute protection/best cyclist'. But 'Rabo-Langeveld-Haussler situations' are very rare. When I understand correctly you'll be able to give different orders to a cyclist (depending on the leadership qualities of the team): maybe the combination (early)attack/helper will make a situation possible that a good helper will be able to help in a late stadium in the race (Like VDB tried to do for Cadel ) If a helper is in the same group as the attacker, he will always help. If a team mate tries to make a jump. The team mates in the leading group will stop helping (and get an attack/sprint bonus), until the other attacker reaches the leading group or is catched again by the peloton. I realize this will not always be the most realistic situation, but it will improve the RE at least. I admire the plans, but it will be a very difficult task. Now we can use our imagination (race reports from managers), just try to avoid ridiculous race situations, sometimes less is more. It's a very good idea to test this in funraces, I think it will take a while. Don't get me wrong: I support this. To avoid misunderstanding : you can give 1 tactic per cyclist. So either your cyclist will be a helper or an attacker or a finalsprinter or he will safe energy. But he can't be a helper and attacker at the same time. I appreciate the feedback and the ideas a lot !
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Post by NikeBoy on Jul 25, 2009 17:51:53 GMT 1
Another remark, will it be considered cheating if you agree with an another team to attack at the same point? No, it is not considered cheating. Attacking on the same point does not mean that the attackers will be automatically placed in one group. The influence of the helpers on the speed of the peloton will be determined by a couple of factors. Besides the skills of the helpers, it is also important if your team has selected a final sprinter. It also depends on the chances of having a massprint : when there are already a lot of cyclists in front of the peloton, the chance of catching all cyclists will be small and so the helpers in the peloton will not give their utmost best to increase the speed, ...
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Post by Berserker on Jul 26, 2009 9:55:43 GMT 1
But when you have a leading group of 5 cyclists, won't your helpers try to place your final sprinter in a good position for the 6th place? This could be important for the green jersey.
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Post by NikeBoy on Jul 26, 2009 11:03:54 GMT 1
Absolutely ! Your helpers will ALWAYS try to put the final sprinter in the best position for the pelotonsprint, even if it is for the 60th place. But the speed they will develop before they reach the last kilometer (in order to catch a leading group) will not be so high when there are a lot of cyclists already in front of the peloton (and so the chance of a masssprint decreases)
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Post by Bostrol on Jul 26, 2009 12:30:31 GMT 1
when will the new race engine be ready? Or when will we be able to test it in the funraces?
I have a lot of riders with a good sprint skill, but a poor time trial skill. If you can assure me that the new race engine will be used in the next season or the season after that, I will train them in time trial for some time. If not, it's a waste of training; I get much more profit in training them in mountain...
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srbob
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 9
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Post by srbob on Aug 19, 2009 21:16:48 GMT 1
I'm a newbie around here!
I started playing two cycling manager games at the same time. Continue playing peloton due to the complete wiki and specially due to easy understanding game engine. I believe the new match engine might be a bit confusing for begginers. Not the Sprint/Time trial + other skill combination or the eventual weather influence (those are realistic changes), but the tactical options might turn the game much more harder for who his starting. Of course the tactical options are realistic in many ways, but in some ways we can mess up our own work, and that's the worst thing for a begginer. When you do some things well, but do other things that penalize all the good work.
About the tactics, I believe that a online game must simulate real life, but of course no virtual game is real life, so for example, a peloton with all the helpers influencing the speed no matter if you have someone on the first place, although not real it's playable. But about the attacking stratagies I believe some stuff should be reviwed. Attacking on distance gaps instead of a precise distance does not appears to be a bad idea. But that if there's some way of the cyclists try to form a group in those conditions, for example or any other way of controling the fitness losses. Also the attacks should be controled in some way. So our second attack does not penalize our first one... If that's not possible I believe the changes will make a lot of new players to leave the game as it's a condition they can not avoid. They are risking their team twice. Trying the attack and penalizing the cyclist fitness, and penalizing the other cyclist that made the first attack. If this is reviewd I believe the changes are not that hard that can not be understood, are not that great that teams can not adapt but are enough to bring more competitivity to the game.
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Post by NikeBoy on Aug 21, 2009 10:00:59 GMT 1
Attacking on distance gaps instead of a precise distance does not appears to be a bad idea. But that if there's some way of the cyclists try to form a group in those conditions, for example or any other way of controling the fitness losses. First of all, thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it. For this first remark, you will notice that the cyclists do not all attack on the same point. Take an example : a flat part is followed by a hill part and there is an attack point at the start of the hill part. When 5 cyclists are ordered to attack at that point, they will not all attack at the same point, but rather try to escape somewhere along the beginning of the hill part (so a little bit spread). An attack will not have any effect on the cyclist's fitness ! Only his "in-race" sprint skill will be a little lower. For example : a cyclist has sprint skill 5.4 . He places an attack and (regardless whether it was a succesful attack or not) his sprint skill will drop to 4.9 (please note that these numbers are fictional). When he places a second attack afterwards it will be a little bit less effective than his first attack. Just like in real life, you can not attack indefinitely without paying a penalty for this. After the race however, his sprint skill will be restored to 5.4 ! As a final note, I want to make clear that it will never be the intention to make the race engine complex ! The tactics are limited to 4 (help, attack, final sprint, save fitness) of which 2 (final sprint and save fitness) do not require much knowledge of the game. Only for helpers and attackers you will have to find a balance.
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srbob
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 9
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Post by srbob on Aug 23, 2009 2:52:39 GMT 1
Also the attacks should be controled in some way. So our second attack does not penalize our first one... If that's not possible I believe the changes will make a lot of new players to leave the game as it's a condition they can not avoid. They are risking their team twice. Trying the attack and penalizing the cyclist fitness, and penalizing the other cyclist that made the first attack. If this is reviewd I believe the changes are not that hard that can not be understood, are not that great that teams can not adapt but are enough to bring more competitivity to the game. An attack will not have any effect on the cyclist's fitness ! Only his "in-race" sprint skill will be a little lower. For example : a cyclist has sprint skill 5.4 . He places an attack and (regardless whether it was a succesful attack or not) his sprint skill will drop to 4.9 (please note that these numbers are fictional). When he places a second attack afterwards it will be a little bit less effective than his first attack. Just like in real life, you can not attack indefinitely without paying a penalty for this. After the race however, his sprint skill will be restored to 5.4 ! Maybe I wasn't very clear. I'm talking about when you try a second attack with one other cyclist. I believe an option is having lots of conditions for events (attack if in the first group, if no fellow in the group in front, if more than 5cyclists in the next group), but I believe that or would be very incomplete, or very hard for begginers, and time loss for those that does not want to spend too much time. I believe a interesting option would be two different events options (kind of begginers one and advanced one). In the first you just choose who attacks and when/where maybe other no complex conditions, and then the advanced events, with all the conditions the ME and the ADM time allows. So there's the option of playing peloton without much time spent. But there's always the option of preparing very well the race and lost it due to a ME limitation...
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Post by NikeBoy on Aug 23, 2009 11:28:22 GMT 1
I don't know where you get the idea that there are conditions for attacks ? When you select a cyclist for an attack at a specific point, he will just try to attack, regardless whether there are already cyclists in front, teammates ahead or whatever situation ! He will place the attack without any restrictions. It doesn't matter if it is your 1st cyclist or your 5th cyclist which places an attack.
So it is pretty straightforward : an attack is an attack, no pre conditions
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Post by Berserker on Aug 24, 2009 11:25:29 GMT 1
when will the new race engine be ready? Or when will we be able to test it in the funraces? I have a lot of riders with a good sprint skill, but a poor time trial skill. If you can assure me that the new race engine will be used in the next season or the season after that, I will train them in time trial for some time. If not, it's a waste of training; I get much more profit in training them in mountain... I second that. I'm planning to train TT for a while for the new engine. But it would be a shame if the new engine isn't ready by next season, because I don't want to weaken my team. I'm sure that you put a lot of effort in it and that it is not simple, I really appreciate it! But a fixed deadline would be nice (if possible). Keep up the good work for this wonderful game!
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srbob
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 9
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Post by srbob on Aug 24, 2009 15:50:54 GMT 1
I don't know where you get the idea that there are conditions for attacks ? When you select a cyclist for an attack at a specific point, he will just try to attack, regardless whether there are already cyclists in front, teammates ahead or whatever situation ! He will place the attack without any restrictions. It doesn't matter if it is your 1st cyclist or your 5th cyclist which places an attack. So it is pretty straightforward : an attack is an attack, no pre conditions There is a condition (distance, or a "specific point" like you called it), I believe that would be interesting keeping things simple like that for begginers, but I believe that can be annoying for who really likes the game and spend time on it and lose races due to only have that specific condition for preparing the attack. But of course when we see how it is working it is easier to see the advantages and disadvatages of the new ME.
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Post by Il Padrino on Aug 24, 2009 16:53:30 GMT 1
Maybe we can find some solution for the more casual players. Like a predefined tactics or something, so you just have to click one button. Of course, those tactics should be very basic, so that those who spend more time choosing their tactics still have the advantage.
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