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Post by iwander71 on Jun 1, 2009 8:15:20 GMT 1
1. "Save Fitness": The cyclist with this order won’t take any initiative during the entire race. He is just going with the flow, hiding from the headwind by drafting behind others backs and stay with the peloton. So the cyclist will try to save his strength as much as possible, with the only goal to reach to finish. By doing so, it is not surprising he will lose only a little fitness at the finish line. This tactic is opportune when the cyclist does not really pursue a good overall ranking in a tour, but rather aims for that specific race victory later on. What is the amount of saved fitness? Is it a percentage? Will the amount vary? Is the amount random? Is there a chance of failure? IE: If rider falls... maybe early in the race; forcing him to spend energy catching up??
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Post by iwander71 on Jun 1, 2009 8:31:34 GMT 1
2. "Attacker" : The cyclist will attempt an attack on one or more predefined points during the race. When a cyclist attempts an attack, he will first perform a break-away (‘demarrage’) to create an initial gap. For this break-away the cyclist needs a sufficient Sprint skill. Will the sprint-skill be used in combination with the terrain's skill? IE: sprint + hill, or sprint + mountain. In the case of a solo-attack would the time-trial-skill have an affect also? IE: sprint + hill + T.T., or sprint + mountain + T.T.
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Post by iwander71 on Jun 1, 2009 8:41:46 GMT 1
3. "Helper": This task is given to cyclists that you want to concentrate on helping your attacker(s) and/or final sprinter. When a cyclist has a flat tire or a fall and he has enough helpers in his group at that time, these helpers will guide the cyclist back to his group without any time penalty. A helper will also help his team mate(s) to overcome a bad part of the race. When there is for instance a strip of hill and one of your cyclists only has poor hill skill, the helpers will surround him and try to keep him in the group. The more helpers in the group, the more effective their influence is and the better a lower skilled cyclist can hang on to them. Will the 'Helper' only give his aid to riders that are set to attack, or as final-sprinters? Or will he give his aid to any of his teammates? What if the 'Helper' is ahead of the problem? Or too far behind??
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Post by iwander71 on Jun 1, 2009 9:04:09 GMT 1
Very Nice changes ahead, indeed. But I'm not sure I understand the Teamtactics part completely : - These Teamtactics points is this based on the total (ex-)leadership-skill of your selected cyclists, or only on the designated 'leader' ? - Will these teamtactics evolve in the same way as the leadership-skill does now ? - What happens when you enter a race without teamtactics points, or what behaviour will be generated for cyclists who's tactic isn't set, will they have random behaviour Maybe the 'watchdog' behaviour can be implemented to. That is for cyclists who try to follow escape groups but won't work in it. (f.i. because the teams wants their sprinter to win the race). So he would discourage the escapees a bit. Only the ex-leadership points of the designated "leader" will be taken into account for "buying" tactics. For the moment, this TeamTatic-skill will evolve in the same way as the leadershipskill. You will get 5 points for free, always, even if you enter with a "leader" of zero TeamTacticSkill. The behaviour of the "default" cyclist is non of the above , i.e. he will nto attack, nor ride SaF, nor help, nor participate in the final sprint. So it means he will just ride in the peloton (if he can follow it) What will happen if/when the leader is injured? Will the second-rider's ex-leadership points take over? ;D
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Post by NikeBoy on Jun 1, 2009 10:10:56 GMT 1
1. "Save Fitness": The cyclist with this order won’t take any initiative during the entire race. He is just going with the flow, hiding from the headwind by drafting behind others backs and stay with the peloton. So the cyclist will try to save his strength as much as possible, with the only goal to reach to finish. By doing so, it is not surprising he will lose only a little fitness at the finish line. This tactic is opportune when the cyclist does not really pursue a good overall ranking in a tour, but rather aims for that specific race victory later on. What is the amount of saved fitness? Is it a percentage? Will the amount vary? Is the amount random? Is there a chance of failure? IE: If rider falls... maybe early in the race; forcing him to spend energy catching up?? The amount will, probavly, be 4% and it will be fixed for all races. The purpose of the SaF rider is just to reach the finish. So even when he makes a tumble, he will not worry and continues to paddle, with a smile on his face, to the finish line ...
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Post by NikeBoy on Jun 1, 2009 10:12:34 GMT 1
2. "Attacker" : The cyclist will attempt an attack on one or more predefined points during the race. When a cyclist attempts an attack, he will first perform a break-away (‘demarrage’) to create an initial gap. For this break-away the cyclist needs a sufficient Sprint skill. Will the sprint-skill be used in combination with the terrain's skill? IE: sprint + hill, or sprint + mountain. In the case of a solo-attack would the time-trial-skill have an affect also? IE: sprint + hill + T.T., or sprint + mountain + T.T. Yes, it will be a combination of those skills...
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Post by NikeBoy on Jun 1, 2009 10:14:19 GMT 1
3. "Helper": This task is given to cyclists that you want to concentrate on helping your attacker(s) and/or final sprinter. When a cyclist has a flat tire or a fall and he has enough helpers in his group at that time, these helpers will guide the cyclist back to his group without any time penalty. A helper will also help his team mate(s) to overcome a bad part of the race. When there is for instance a strip of hill and one of your cyclists only has poor hill skill, the helpers will surround him and try to keep him in the group. The more helpers in the group, the more effective their influence is and the better a lower skilled cyclist can hang on to them. Will the 'Helper' only give his aid to riders that are set to attack, or as final-sprinters? Or will he give his aid to any of his teammates? What if the 'Helper' is ahead of the problem? Or too far behind?? A helper will help EVERY team member, including other helpers. He can only help another teammember when he is in the same group as that teammember. So helpers falling behind the peloton can become quite useless.
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Post by NikeBoy on Jun 1, 2009 10:15:37 GMT 1
Only the ex-leadership points of the designated "leader" will be taken into account for "buying" tactics. For the moment, this TeamTatic-skill will evolve in the same way as the leadershipskill. You will get 5 points for free, always, even if you enter with a "leader" of zero TeamTacticSkill. The behaviour of the "default" cyclist is non of the above , i.e. he will nto attack, nor ride SaF, nor help, nor participate in the final sprint. So it means he will just ride in the peloton (if he can follow it) What will happen if/when the leader is injured? Will the second-rider's ex-leadership points take over? ;D Still point of discussion. I would like to keep it fixed for the entire tour ! So it wouldn't matter if he gets injured or not...
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Post by killer1982 on Jun 2, 2009 7:41:53 GMT 1
would it not make sense if riders with lower skills lose more fitness, even when trying to stay in the peloton? As an example - on a race that is, let's say for the sake of argument, 100km flat, a rider with 8 flat would lose less fitness for achieving the same time as a rider with 5 (I know that any race is a combination of different skills, so the actual computation is more complicated, but I hope you get my point). In reality I guess that this is what happens - i.e. that poorer riders struggle to keep up and hence are more tired the next day than those with better skills.
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Post by Il Padrino on Jun 2, 2009 10:49:58 GMT 1
I think the loss in time, especially for tours, is a sufficient penalty for low skilled cyclists. We don't want to make things overly complicated, either.
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Post by droopy on Jul 23, 2009 0:33:06 GMT 1
If you have had a successful attack, do your helpers still help the peloton getting the average speed up? Yes, they do, as you might have also a cyclist in the peloton who is going for the final sprint and/or another cyclist who is eager to place an attack somewhere later on Isn't it possible to 'cancel' the helper tactic if a team mate rides in front (program with time diff, possible?). Otherwise there will be ridiculous situations. By implementing this you can also use the real life tactic: sending someone in an early escape and give your team mates some rest. If the peloton catches the leaders, your helpers can ride for your sprinter. The speed will increase significant. If it's possible to change the helper attack in a counter attack ('watch dog') position, it would even be better. He will only be able to follow if his sprint and terrain skill is the same/better compared to the attacking cyclist. So only your master helper will be able to follow, nobody will be able to follow the best cyclist in race if he places his attack. You get realistic situations. And if the helper can close the gap (in the wheel of the attacker), he will immediately start helping the escaped group. About the attack point. If you create an 'attack range' on the same terrain. Let's say you select an attack point at 75 km (+/- 5km) uphill. Another manager gives the order to attack at 71km uphill. The 71km cyclist will attack first and the 75km cyclist will respond at the same moment. Otherwise it will be difficult to create groups, unless you select the exact same distance as attack point. About the final sprint: Will different parameters play a role? amount of helpers -> bonus for the sprinter? steering of the sprinter -> optimal position=bonus? If it's calculated the same, the same cyclist will always win on the same terrain... Cavendish is an exception... I realize it will be quite difficult to program. But the race situations will become much more realistic.
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Post by pottel on Jul 24, 2009 13:09:02 GMT 1
But idd will be anoying
Like ronde van vlaanderen i always start with a 16 flat and 4 others with at least 14 flat the 16 flat will be the sprinter but my 15 flat i will send in attacks to avoid the sprint were i always will loose to massacret.
Isn't it then ridiculous that my 3 "helpers" are riding after my escaped 15 flat?
Only way i can avoid that it seems is to start attacking from the beginning with my entire team. And make sure their TT is high enough. Am sure my team at the start has the higest avarage flat skill. So best way for me to try and finish alone will be no helpers then and attack with 5, halfway the race second attack and leave one behind and 30 kilometer before the finish an attack every 10 kilometer in the hope they arrive before the peloton. That seems to be the only way my helpers are only helping my best cyclist and not ride in the peloton when he is in front
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Post by michels888 on Jul 24, 2009 18:49:40 GMT 1
I find it rather stupid to use the sprint skill to attack. Are Jens Voigt, Fabian Cancellara, Flecha etc. good sprinters? No, but they are very good attackers. I would make en new ability named attack.
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Post by NikeBoy on Jul 25, 2009 15:53:36 GMT 1
Yes, they do, as you might have also a cyclist in the peloton who is going for the final sprint and/or another cyclist who is eager to place an attack somewhere later on Isn't it possible to 'cancel' the helper tactic if a team mate rides in front (program with time diff, possible?). Otherwise there will be ridiculous situations. By implementing this you can also use the real life tactic: sending someone in an early escape and give your team mates some rest. If the peloton catches the leaders, your helpers can ride for your sprinter. The speed will increase significant. That's indeed possible, but what will happen when you plan an attack with another cyclist later on in the race ? Will the helpers still try to increase the peloton's speed or not. If not, the chances that the second attacker will win a race decreases as he will have to close a bigger gap. Or what in case your cyclist has attacked but there is a group of 20 cyclists already 5 minutes in front ? Will the peloton not try to close this gap, because it would be ridiculous that your helpers stop helping the peloton because it has an attacker 30 seconds in front of the peloton while there are 20 cyclists more than 5 minutes in front ... But when will your best helper place this counter attack ? When the next cyclists attacks ? Attackpoints will always be placed at the start of a new part of the race. So yes, it will be at fix points. You will not have to enter a distance at which he will attack. Yes, some different parameters will determine the final sprint : e.g. if you assign the final sprint tactic to a cyclist, his sprint will be boosted. Also the amount of helpers in his group at the time of the final sprint will have an influence (helpers can bring a sprinter in a good position to the finish). Some other parameters will also have a small influence, so it will not be automatically the cyclist with the highest sprintskill who will win ...
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Post by NikeBoy on Jul 25, 2009 15:57:40 GMT 1
I find it rather stupid to use the sprint skill to attack. Are Jens Voigt, Fabian Cancellara, Flecha etc. good sprinters? No, but they are very good attackers. I would make en new ability named attack. The sprint skill is mainly needed to make an initial gap, the time trial skill is mainly needed to maintain or increase the gap. Just like in real cycling, there will be first a so-called "demarrage" in which the attacker will "sprint" away from the group. When he makes an initial gap, he will sit down on his bike and paddle as fast as he can to increase this gap ...
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