dave
Junior Team
Posts: 33
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Post by dave on Dec 27, 2012 14:17:58 GMT 1
In the old race engine this was easier; now almost impossible. I think only possible if you attack with 5 riders on the first attack point and nobody else attacks. my 5 cyclists attacked all at second attack point. at first one seven opponents cyclist leaved the peloton but mines managed to take them and surpass five of them without make others attack and the other two were beaten in final sprint
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Post by kurtinsc on Dec 27, 2012 14:54:48 GMT 1
Again i said i want realism. I have hardly ever seen a mountain cyclist win a sprint jersey, thus i dont want i to happen in peloton too. Just a point, but mountain guys win sprint jerseys much more often then you think... just not in the tour. The "sprint jersey" is actually a points jersey. It's awarded to the most consistent finisher and consistent placement in intermediate sprints. In many races, there aren't a ton of flat stages and mountain guys win. For example, this year in Paris-Nice, Bradley Wiggins won the sprint jersey. Some other examples from this year: Tirreno-Adriatico - Nibali Catalunya - Marczynski (more of an attacker, not a sprinter) Basque - Pinotti (TT/attacker who climbs a bit) Giro - Joaquim Rodriguez Dauphine - Cadel Evans Vuelta - Valverde All examples of non-sprinters winning the points jersey in major races, including 2 of the 3 GT's. The idea that the points jersey is for sprinters is only true for flat races... and the TDF is mostly a flat race (usually more then half the stages are sprint finishes, or something close to that).
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Post by kurtinsc on Dec 27, 2012 14:59:15 GMT 1
Today a result in my division that without any doubt should be made impossible. A team got results 1-5 (ok, this is possible if the team really has better skills and finishes alone) but number 6 and 7 were from other teams. No way that in real life this would happen. Those cyclists should have a smaller chance to win because of their minority, but they will almost never end as the two last of their group. Certainly not if it's a flat sprint. I don't have checked the race report, but my cyclist with 10 flat wasn't in the group, so I think they just attacked all 5 together. This should not be possible, ever seen a whole team attack at once? This can't be that hard to implent I guess... The TDF a few years back, Columbia HTC did something similar. It wasn't a traditional attack, but they all went to the front and hit the gas at a section with powerful crosswinds. They essentially attacked without attacking. I think they created a finishing group of 20 riders where 9 were from their team, and the rest weren't necessarily great flat riders... just guys who were paying attention (Armstrong, Cancellera, Hushovd and a few others... while guys like Contador and Schleck missed it). That was the year Armstrong finished 3rd I think.
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Post by Quatannens on Dec 27, 2012 16:29:49 GMT 1
Some more remarks as I analyse some results. Today my final sprinter ended behind my helper. Ok, I put him om 100%, but that's to try to keep the pace high. (What didn't worked as the same team as before just got away with 5 cyclists, just attacking together.) dave: You said your cyclists got the attackers back, well this shouldn't be able either. You set them all 5 as 'attacker', none of them should hunt escapers, helpers are introduced for that job.
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Post by kurtinsc on Dec 27, 2012 17:04:44 GMT 1
dave: You said your cyclists got the attackers back, well this shouldn't be able either. You set them all 5 as 'attacker', none of them should hunt escapers, helpers are introduced for that job. I believe he meant his attackers caught those who attacked before. Nothing odd about that. Once you attack, the attackers would be riding for the win rather then sitting in the peloton. If their speed is better then those ahead, they'd catch them. Think about a late attack of GC riders passing early attackers at the end of the stage in real life. They're not helpers... but in riding for the win they overtook the guys who attacked at the beginning of the day.
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Post by Quatannens on Dec 27, 2012 17:12:31 GMT 1
As long as they are in the peloton, they shouldn't do anything except for attacking. They are not selected as helper, once they have attacked they can catch them back, that's true
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Post by kurtinsc on Dec 27, 2012 17:28:48 GMT 1
As long as they are in the peloton, they shouldn't do anything except for attacking. They are not selected as helper, once they have attacked they can catch them back, that's true Well, I think they could go for sprints (and take part in the final sprint), but you are correct in that they shouldn't chase. Of course, the peloton has to have a speed... so if NO teams have any helpers, there has to be some method of determining how fast the peloton will pedal. And attackers who fail at their attack or haven't attacked yet should still count for that the same way a final sprinter or no-strategy rider would.
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Post by Quatannens on Dec 27, 2012 20:19:09 GMT 1
Yes, true there has to be a speed, but it has to be significantly lower than the speed helpers with the same speed would get. If there are attackers gone and no helpers, attackers shouldn't ever be caught (I suppose they have decent skills).
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Post by Quatannens on Jan 18, 2013 13:59:43 GMT 1
Euh, today a result that proves that mountain is currently way overpowered... My 7-7-1-2 cyclist ended 49th. Just to prove that there is something wrong: He was 100% fit and going 100%, didn't fell or got a flat tire. A cyclist 3-2-8-1 with 80% fitness and going 70% (=56% of the effort) ended with more than 1 min 30 sec advantage. The terrain today was mainly hill, downhill and flat in which the first cyclist is better in every single skill. Only mountain is worse, but still he looses that much time? Please tell me how the 3-2-8-1 didn't was tired at all after the flat/hill part.
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 18, 2013 14:42:18 GMT 1
Euh, today a result that proves that mountain is currently way overpowered... My 7-7-1-2 cyclist ended 49th. Just to prove that there is something wrong: He was 100% fit and going 100%, didn't fell or got a flat tire. A cyclist 3-2-8-1 with 80% fitness and going 70% (=56% of the effort) ended with more than 1 min 30 sec advantage. The terrain today was mainly hill, downhill and flat in which the first cyclist is better in every single skill. Only mountain is worse, but still he looses that much time? Please tell me how the 3-2-8-1 didn't was tired at all after the flat/hill part. For me seems logical that the rider with only 1M get beind. This is a 1 day stage so many riders goes at 100%. In the flat part its easy to a bad flat rider keep the peloton pace but in mountain its hard to a bad mountain rider keep the pace.
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Post by Quatannens on Jan 18, 2013 15:20:52 GMT 1
So from now one we all train mountain? Everybody can follow on hill/flat/downhill, but if you don't have mountain you loose? The cyclist with 8 mountain should have let the peloton go on flat/hill parts and even if he could follow, he wasn't tired at all compared to the better cyclist? It's all mountain now, they can follow anywhere...
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Post by kurtinsc on Jan 18, 2013 17:02:00 GMT 1
What were the circumstances?
Did they both attack? Did his guy attack and your guy not? Falls or flats?
The issue is the last two sections of uphill were mountain, when the peloton is going it's fastest. I had gone with more hill-focused guys in my league thinking they were hilly sections, and my mountain guy who was a helper at 85% got the best result for my team while my 100% hill guys fell back. The winner attacked at the 3rd from last attack point, the second place rider attacked on the 2nd to last attack point and the other gaps all came back together on the final downhill.
My early attacks with hill riders were all swallowed up in downhill and mountain sections.
I don't really expect riders to be spit out of the peloton unless the peloton is really pushing the pace. At the end of the stage... yeah. But many non-climbing sprinters make it up very steep mountains in the peloton in real life if the pace isn't harried. And many horrible flat riders finish flat stages with the peloton.
In a stage ending with mountains, with hill/flat/downhill in the early stages... wouldn't the climbers dominate in real life?
Similarly, on stage 1 of San-Louis... the flat/sprint riders won despite early hills. The later terrain mattered more. That's expected, right?
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Post by Quatannens on Jan 18, 2013 17:31:16 GMT 1
But the difference with real life is that those climbers also have hill and flat skill. In peloton they don't, at least not my cyclist. I would expect that cyclists with worse skills would be more tired than those with better skills, so that even if they come to a terrain where the best cyclists changes they would be more tired and less able to create a high pace. If my cyclist can't escape from the peloton (with 7 flat/hill and 4 sprint) I think the peloton is going fast, so the climbers should be exhausted by the time they reach the mountainpart (or even dropped from the peloton). It is true that the ending of a stage is more important, but right now it seems the first 75% of the race doens't has any influence. Also it would mean that cyclists should be able to follow the peloton on early mountainious parts, which isn't the case right now.
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Post by kurtinsc on Jan 18, 2013 18:33:16 GMT 1
But the difference with real life is that those climbers also have hill and flat skill. In peloton they don't, at least not my cyclist. I would expect that cyclists with worse skills would be more tired than those with better skills, so that even if they come to a terrain where the best cyclists changes they would be more tired and less able to create a high pace. If my cyclist can't escape from the peloton (with 7 flat/hill and 4 sprint) I think the peloton is going fast, so the climbers should be exhausted by the time they reach the mountainpart (or even dropped from the peloton). It is true that the ending of a stage is more important, but right now it seems the first 75% of the race doens't has any influence. Also it would mean that cyclists should be able to follow the peloton on early mountainious parts, which isn't the case right now. There doesn't seem to be much of any fatigue aspect in the engine right now, that much is true. Perhaps the issue is it's either too hard to stay with the peloton in the mountains or too easy in the flats. I actually don't think there's an issue when you deal with breaks... in stage 1 of San Louis, there was a set of breaks with 5 riders ahead of the peloton entering the long flat section of the stage. 3 were my guys, none of whom were strong in the flat. The other two were flat riders. My guys were out in front and theirs didn't just catch my lead group, but passed them (and one of my guys got swallowed by the peloton). Then my other two guys caught the two flat riders on the hill following the flat. It seems to work right in that scenario. But I don't know the answer with the peloton. Does it need to be harder to hold on to the peloton in the flat? Easier in the mountains? Do we need to sacrifice some realism in favor of gameplay? I don't know the answer.
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 18, 2013 21:52:43 GMT 1
So from now one we all train mountain? Everybody can follow on hill/flat/downhill, but if you don't have mountain you loose? The cyclist with 8 mountain should have let the peloton go on flat/hill parts and even if he could follow, he wasn't tired at all compared to the better cyclist? It's all mountain now, they can follow anywhere... Thats not true. In ESTANCIA GRANDE - MIRADOR DEL POTRERO my mountain riders with only 2/3 flat they loose contact with peloton in the flat section, and only 2 riders recover in the last mountain because they use extra effort.
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