non consistent simulations

[leor16]

Last 2 days we had kind of simular races:

12/4/2013 We Lugo - Vigo (flat: 56, hill: 82, moutain: 23, downhill: 45)
12/5/2013 Th Tarragona - Vallibon (flat: 46, hill: 78, moutain: 32, downhill: 58)

Yesterday 12/4: my rider (with tactic 'save fitness') managed to stay ahead of the peleton, and still won 46" on the first rider of the peloton.
So I thought to put him today on 70%, a bigger effort then yesterday and a simular stage, so i was expecting again some timewin. But when I saw the results, it seemed like he had lost 1'54" on the first rider of that same peloton.


Offcourse the tactics of the other teams have an influence aswell, but to me this seems more a bug, or at least a big inconsistency rather then a logic result ..

[Mike]

don't understimate the +9 km mountain

[leor16]

Dec 5, 2013 17:37:52 GMT 1 Mike said:

don't understimate the +9 km mountain

On the first day he escaped (while saving fitness) on the 16km long mountain-part, so this 9km extra should have been in his advantage ..
So there isn't really a logic explanation for it, that's why I posted it in 'Bugs'

[Mike]

then it could be something else...
I'm pretty sure there's no bug in the calculations or this would have surfaced a long time ago..

I think, just my opinion

[kurtinsc]

I'm not sure what rider you are talking about. Rosenfeld or Rodriguez I assume.

Both were in the second half of a split peloton going into the final climb. Rodriguez had fallen but made his way back to that group. Their group was 2:19 back of the lead peloton.

Rosenfeld made his way up to the lead group (an attack?). Rodriguez didn't... but gained nearly a whole minute finishing 1:21 back.

The two stages were different in their makeup. The one where you lost time had a mountain early and a mountain late... and non-mountainous terrain in the middle. The earlier mountain had the mountains in the middle with other terrain at the beginning and end. This has an impact in terms of when certain types of riders get shaken from the pack. Combine that with the fact the fall happened which pushed Rodriguez to the back peloton rather then the front one... and I'm not sure there's anything all that odd looking with this.

[leor16]

It's Rosenfeld offcourse, and like I said before the first day he managed to get away on a moutainpart while saving fitness. The second day he lost almost 2 minuts, while he has flat 5 and hill 5 (and 9% more fitness), normally that should be high enough to at least follow the peloton in the 'non-mountainous' middle of the stage...

[heppie]

In both stages Rosenfeld couldn't follow the peloton on a flat part. In stage 4 (Lugo-Vigo) he loses connection on part 6 (23km flat) and in stage 5 (Tarragona-Vallibona)on part 8 (13km flat).

What I think is strange is that in stage 4 Rosenfeld passes the peloton on the next part (16km mountain) instead of joining the peloton. In some way it's possible that a save fitness rider or helper who is dropped by the peloton can pass the peloton on a terrain where he is better on but save fitness riders and helpers don't attack from the peloton if they're still part of it.

I think this is the same problem as is described in this thread:

peloton.proboards.com/thread/8606/rider-won-losing-fitness

Here a cyclist (Trifu) is dropped from the "peloton" (1st group of 11 cyclist) on the last hill part in stage Malaga-Cordoba. On the flat part he passes the peloton and he wins the stage.

And an other example is Milano-Torino this week in my own division 3:3. My helper Mostin falls at the first part and cycles nearly the whole race 1-2 minutes behind the peloton but passes on the last mountain part and ends 9th.

[kurtinsc]

Yes, it sounds like the problem is on the stage he didn't drop.

I think it's because when your rider is going solo (or in a small group) their individual stats matter a lot more then if they are in the peloton. So a highl stat guy for particular terrain on save fitness can pass a peloton that CONTAINS just as good or better riders where the speed is coming from lower class helpers pulling the group.

In reality, if a high stat guy came from behind and passed the group, those capable would go with him and the low class helpers would be dropped. But in the game, because it happens in one section that doesn't happen.

[Quatannens]

I had some strange results yesterday. I copy the post from 1:1 division forum. The race: Andorra - Peyragudes. I hope somebody can explain these results to me, because I think I really lost much much time yesterday.

I found something very strange for me.
After part 6 (hill) my 3 cyclists are in the same group. Part 7 (mountain) should be Strassera who leads. What do I see? Nastasia takes almost 4 minutes on that mountain. Let's do some easy math.
Nastasia: 7 mountain * 0.69 fitness * 0.7 effort = 3.381
Strassera: 13 mountain * 1.00 fitness * 1.00 effort = 13
Please tell me what is wrong :/ (And don't say it is TT because Strassera has higher TT)

Some other nice stuff:
After part 15 (mountain) Frouin looses contact with Strassera (Less effort, less mountain, makes sense)
In part 17 (mountain) he just comes back.
After part 18 Frouin and Strassera are still in the same group.
At the finish Frouin suddenly has more than 1 minute advantage. Let's do some simple math again.
Frouin: 7 mountain * 1.00 fitness * 0.6 effort = 4.2
Strassera: 13 mountain * 1.00 fitness * 1.00 effort = 13
Frouin has higher TT, but still. Why can't he follow one mountainpart and can he escape on another? I really don't get it today.

[kurtinsc]

Dec 11, 2013 11:58:28 GMT 1 Quatannens said:

I had some strange results yesterday. I copy the post from 1:1 division forum. The race: Andorra - Peyragudes. I hope somebody can explain these results to me, because I think I really lost much much time yesterday.

I found something very strange for me.
After part 6 (hill) my 3 cyclists are in the same group. Part 7 (mountain) should be Strassera who leads. What do I see? Nastasia takes almost 4 minutes on that mountain. Let's do some easy math.
Nastasia: 7 mountain * 0.69 fitness * 0.7 effort = 3.381
Strassera: 13 mountain * 1.00 fitness * 1.00 effort = 13
Please tell me what is wrong :/ (And don't say it is TT because Strassera has higher TT)

Some other nice stuff:
After part 15 (mountain) Frouin looses contact with Strassera (Less effort, less mountain, makes sense)
In part 17 (mountain) he just comes back.
After part 18 Frouin and Strassera are still in the same group.
At the finish Frouin suddenly has more than 1 minute advantage. Let's do some simple math again.
Frouin: 7 mountain * 1.00 fitness * 0.6 effort = 4.2
Strassera: 13 mountain * 1.00 fitness * 1.00 effort = 13
Frouin has higher TT, but still. Why can't he follow one mountainpart and can he escape on another? I really don't get it today.

Without looking too close... were your guys in the lead group?

Because the section selected in the report is the one the leaders are in. If your guys were back, it's possible that while the leaders were in the mountain section, your guys were still in the hill section. Would that result have made sense if it were on hill? Would the other anomolies have made sense if you assume your guys were in the section before the one selected in the report due to being further back from the leaders?

[Quatannens]

Ok, the selection selected is the one with the leaders in. But the standings after that part are taken when everybody has reached the last point of that section no? Or is it the gap at the moment the leader gets to the last point (which would make no sense at all since you can't even measure such thing in real life).

[champadero]

On todays stage, something strange happened, I had set to attack 2 riders on the same point (First attack point = Mountain), but the weaker from both, Pagliarini gets at group 2, while the stronger one, Deproost, gets at group 5, 41 seconds behind...

Both same effort, same fitness, same TT,... Deproost 23 kgs lighter, 2 more Mountain skillpoints and 3 more experience points, while Pagliarini just has slightly better SP, but 0,8 difference as maximum...

How can it be?

[Ab Normaal]

There are a lot of strange things happening.
In todays race I have given my young cyclists enough effort to end up with 80%.
One I gave 80% effort, another 75% effort. They both ended up with 95%.
A third cyclist ended up at 65%, but that should have been 60. After the updat he has 80%, so that is right.
But I have trained him on flat and his TV is exactly the same as before the update. No minus, no plus, 100% exactly the same.

Do others also have weird things in the update?

[Ab Normaal]

After a few strange results I am now 100% sure that things are not correct.
I am not doubting about the winners of the races, I think they are mostly correct, it is about lower placed riders.

In Emilia of Wednesday the 18th (109km flat, 29km mountain), I thought to have a big chance with my rider Vijver for the podium 11-2-7-1-7-3.
He finished 11th, 100% fitness, riding at 100%, attacking on 5 points. I compared him with the riders of Seberla, finishing 4th and 7th. Seberla told me their skills and also told me that both riders attacked at only 3 points. The skills of Vijver are better on flat, mountain and sprint. The skill of Seberla's riders on TT are better. All three no falls or flats.

Vijver lost more than 2 minutes on both riders, which is in my opinion impossible if only the TT skill is a bit better from Seberla's riders while at the same time, Vijver has better flat and mountain skill.
Vijver lost contact immediately at the first attackpoint. Only 5km flat.
With higher sprint and higher flat skill. How is that possible? Only explanation could be that only the TT skill counts, even on the flat parts, because that is the only thing that Seberla's riders are better in.

But if that is the case, then the next example should be impossible.

Then the U21 race today. I sold my victory to EGV, but with Gommers, I had a condidate for the podium.
After point 1, all riders (but one) are still in the first group.
Then Gommers is falling, on a flat part. But my Helper Arbuatti doesn't help him. Even worse. After part 2 (flat 5 km). Gommers and Arbuatti are behind the complete peloton.

But in the meantime, Arbuatti has helped Negri (with lower flat skill) who had a flat tire. So Negri, with lowes flatskill and a flat is still in the peloton after only a flat part of 5km, and Arbuatti and Gommers whit significant higher flat skill aren't both. As the only riders.

Chances of Gommers immediately ruined. Then, the mountain part. I know the skills of Lebas, because I just sold him. Skills on mountain of Gommers are 5 higher on mountian and 2 higher on TT. Together 7 higher.
The difference between them at the start of the mountain part was 2.09. After the 5km mountains it was still 1.38. So only half a minute difference with that enourmous difference on mountain and TT. Also impossible.
Skills of Gommers: 5-1-7-1-4-4 so everyone can compare.

And this happens to me in a lot of races.
In the beginning I had decent results, was fourth in our division, and suddenly I am one of the worst teams in the division. Even a top 10 spot is hardly impossible.

Problem is that I will never know if there is something wrong with the simulations or not since IP doesn't give a shit about the game anymore and spends 0 minutes on it and Nikeboy is way to busy with his job and family to solve this all alone.
He is doing a great job, and everything he can, and I am gratefull, but he cannot do it alone.

At least I am now that far that I want to know if the engine indeed has errors. I don't want to spend anymore of my free time in somehing that I do not trust and that I suspect that it doesn't work properly.

I will check for a few more races. Otherwise I will also quit.

[whistler]

My rider van Vlijmen finished in the same group as Gommers - his stats, if it helps:
4-1-2-2-1-3
also 100% fitness, 100% effort