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Post by Ab Normaal on Dec 23, 2013 14:46:30 GMT 1
Yes, it helps. Thank you!
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Post by kurtinsc on Dec 23, 2013 14:58:02 GMT 1
Ab Normaal... what were the tactics for your riders in the U21 race?
The way helpers are supposed to work is as follows.
1. Most up-front "GC" rider. 2. Most up-front "final sprinter". 3. Most up-front "attacker" 4. Relay the peloton.
If you have two riders in the peloton who are both GC or both final sprinter or both attackers... the first to fall will NOT be helped. Because he will not be the "most up-front"... the guy who didn't fall will be and the helpers will stick with him.
Riders who are "no tactic" will NOT get any help either (they used to).
Does that fit with what you saw during the race?
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Post by Ab Normaal on Dec 23, 2013 15:10:39 GMT 1
Arbuatti was helper, Gommers attacker. Other riders no tactic. All in first peloton. Gommers had a fall, no help. After that Negri had a fall, Arbuatti helped. End of the part: Negr (flat 2) still in the peloton, Arbuatti (flat 3+) and Gommers (flat 5) together behind the peloton....
So, yes, I know the order how helpers work. Therefore only one helper an only one with another tactic.
Can you explain now? Thanks for trying!
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Post by maxz on Dec 23, 2013 16:21:07 GMT 1
I noticed something strange in the cronacle, imo "points" aren't syncronized, i mean the cronacle and part times displayed looks takin into consideration different part, today my cyc curreri attacked twice in the final with one part in advance in the cronacle... I can't say exactly how but it looks strange to me... did someone notice the same? I noticed this also in other stages, not only the U21, things not "syncd" between cronacle and parts/times I don't know AB if engine has smth wrong but i really didn't notice a big difference with the early season, the only difference I can see is that finally genomico used his full team strenght to win all races, and for us there are only second places... I don't know if it comes from engine failures or from his team power... but i bet on the second one... btw surely there was much more flat stages in the beginning of the season...
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Post by kurtinsc on Dec 23, 2013 17:05:13 GMT 1
Arbuatti was helper, Gommers attacker. Other riders no tactic. All in first peloton. Gommers had a fall, no help. After that Negri had a fall, Arbuatti helped. End of the part: Negr (flat 2) still in the peloton, Arbuatti (flat 3+) and Gommers (flat 5) together behind the peloton.... So, yes, I know the order how helpers work. Therefore only one helper an only one with another tactic. Can you explain now? Thanks for trying! All this happened in the same part (both falls)? I would expect at the end of a section where Gommers fell and couldn't keep up that Arbuatti would drop back and help... and if all that happened in one section then that's exactly what happened. The problem would be that if both falls happened in the same part, some bug in the code caused the helper to help the wrong guy. Definitely an issue, but a hard to catch one (two falls in the same section, one rider who should be helped, the other not). If it was in different sections then that is a bug that should have been caught.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Dec 23, 2013 17:13:23 GMT 1
Arbuatti was helper, Gommers attacker. Other riders no tactic. All in first peloton. Gommers had a fall, no help. After that Negri had a fall, Arbuatti helped. End of the part: Negr (flat 2) still in the peloton, Arbuatti (flat 3+) and Gommers (flat 5) together behind the peloton.... So, yes, I know the order how helpers work. Therefore only one helper an only one with another tactic. Can you explain now? Thanks for trying! All this happened in the same part (both falls)? I would expect at the end of a section where Gommers fell and couldn't keep up that Arbuatti would drop back and help... and if all that happened in one section then that's exactly what happened. The problem would be that if both falls happened in the same part, some bug in the code caused the helper to help the wrong guy. Definitely an issue, but a hard to catch one (two falls in the same section, one rider who should be helped, the other not). If it was in different sections then that is a bug that should have been caught. Yes, all in the same (short) part. First the fall of Gommers (no help), a few minutes later the flat of Negri (with help), another few minutes later, end of the part. Everybody in the complete peloton, except Gommers and the helper, Arbuatti.
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Post by heppie on Dec 23, 2013 17:32:55 GMT 1
Arbuatti was helper, Gommers attacker. Other riders no tactic. All in first peloton. Gommers had a fall, no help. After that Negri had a fall, Arbuatti helped. End of the part: Negr (flat 2) still in the peloton, Arbuatti (flat 3+) and Gommers (flat 5) together behind the peloton.... So, yes, I know the order how helpers work. Therefore only one helper an only one with another tactic. Can you explain now? Thanks for trying! Let's make an attempt to explain this. In the race report is written that: 00:14:35 The cyclists of the first group enter part 3 00:10:31 Negri has a flat tire but his teammate is there to help! 00:09:14 Gommers takes a tumble and smashes to the ground 00:07:17 The cyclists of the first group enter part 2 And: Stand after part 2: 22. Negri 1 (peloton) 00:14:35 29. Arbuatti 2 00:15:25 30. Gommers 2 00:15:25 So first Gommers had a fall and then Negri a flat tire. I think a fall causes much more time lose then a flat tire (seems logical). When Gommers falls he loses a lot of time and Arbuatti helps him. This is ok since Arbuatti is helper and Gommers is set as the only attacker and there are no final sprinters. At the end of part 2 they are to far back and considered as a group behind the peloton. A bit later Negri has a flat tire and loses a bit of time. Arbuatti isn't in the peloton so he can't help Negri and there are no other helper that can help him, but Negri is not to far back at the end of the section and is considered as part of the peloton. I guess that the race engine outputs the message "Negri has a flat tire but his teammate is there to help!" to indicate that Negri had a flat tire but was able to get into the peloton before the end of the section.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Dec 23, 2013 19:39:55 GMT 1
Arbuatti was helper, Gommers attacker. Other riders no tactic. All in first peloton. Gommers had a fall, no help. After that Negri had a fall, Arbuatti helped. End of the part: Negr (flat 2) still in the peloton, Arbuatti (flat 3+) and Gommers (flat 5) together behind the peloton.... So, yes, I know the order how helpers work. Therefore only one helper an only one with another tactic. Can you explain now? Thanks for trying! Let's make an attempt to explain this. In the race report is written that: 00:14:35 The cyclists of the first group enter part 3 00:10:31 Negri has a flat tire but his teammate is there to help! 00:09:14 Gommers takes a tumble and smashes to the ground 00:07:17 The cyclists of the first group enter part 2 And: Stand after part 2: 22. Negri 1 (peloton) 00:14:35 29. Arbuatti 2 00:15:25 30. Gommers 2 00:15:25 So first Gommers had a fall and then Negri a flat tire. I think a fall causes much more time lose then a flat tire (seems logical). When Gommers falls he loses a lot of time and Arbuatti helps him. This is ok since Arbuatti is helper and Gommers is set as the only attacker and there are no final sprinters. At the end of part 2 they are to far back and considered as a group behind the peloton. A bit later Negri has a flat tire and loses a bit of time. Arbuatti isn't in the peloton so he can't help Negri and there are no other helper that can help him, but Negri is not to far back at the end of the section and is considered as part of the peloton. I guess that the race engine outputs the message "Negri has a flat tire but his teammate is there to help!" to indicate that Negri had a flat tire but was able to get into the peloton before the end of the section. That is a nice try, but not correct. If there is a helper, a fall will never cost timeloss. That is what the helper for. Check it in whatever race you want. If there is a helper who helps, they will both stay in the same group as they were originally in.
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Post by kurtinsc on Dec 23, 2013 20:15:32 GMT 1
Let's make an attempt to explain this. In the race report is written that: 00:14:35 The cyclists of the first group enter part 3 00:10:31 Negri has a flat tire but his teammate is there to help! 00:09:14 Gommers takes a tumble and smashes to the ground 00:07:17 The cyclists of the first group enter part 2 And: Stand after part 2: 22. Negri 1 (peloton) 00:14:35 29. Arbuatti 2 00:15:25 30. Gommers 2 00:15:25 So first Gommers had a fall and then Negri a flat tire. I think a fall causes much more time lose then a flat tire (seems logical). When Gommers falls he loses a lot of time and Arbuatti helps him. This is ok since Arbuatti is helper and Gommers is set as the only attacker and there are no final sprinters. At the end of part 2 they are to far back and considered as a group behind the peloton. A bit later Negri has a flat tire and loses a bit of time. Arbuatti isn't in the peloton so he can't help Negri and there are no other helper that can help him, but Negri is not to far back at the end of the section and is considered as part of the peloton. I guess that the race engine outputs the message "Negri has a flat tire but his teammate is there to help!" to indicate that Negri had a flat tire but was able to get into the peloton before the end of the section. That is a nice try, but not correct. If there is a helper, a fall will never cost timeloss. That is what the helper for. Check it in whatever race you want. If there is a helper who helps, they will both stay in the same group as they were originally in. Not true I think (but Nike would have to confirm). I believe helpers try to help... but if they can't keep the rider who falls/flats in the group they drop back and help him chase. It doesn't SAY... "rider X tries to help rider Y after his fall but can't get him back"... but the fact he's in the chasing group with him indicates that's exactly what happened. I always thought helpers just made it more likely that a rider was able to stay with the group, not a certainty. I certainly HOPE it's not a certainty... otherwise low-skill helpers would be way too helpful. What I believe is wrong about the scenario is that the helper SHOULDN'T have tried to help the no-tactic rider at all according to the rules put forward. Helpers are supposed to ignore no-tactic, save fitness and other helpers. They are ONLY supposed to help attackers, GC and final sprinters. There is one other possibility (though I didn't think the engine worked this way). If the assumption for helping someone with a flat is that you "give up your wheel", then your helper may have already been dropped when he helped the first rider and thus unable to help the second (main) rider when he crashed.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Dec 23, 2013 20:52:55 GMT 1
That is a nice try, but not correct. If there is a helper, a fall will never cost timeloss. That is what the helper for. Check it in whatever race you want. If there is a helper who helps, they will both stay in the same group as they were originally in. Not true I think (but Nike would have to confirm). I believe helpers try to help... but if they can't keep the rider who falls/flats in the group they drop back and help him chase. It doesn't SAY... "rider X tries to help rider Y after his fall but can't get him back"... but the fact he's in the chasing group with him indicates that's exactly what happened. I always thought helpers just made it more likely that a rider was able to stay with the group, not a certainty. I certainly HOPE it's not a certainty... otherwise low-skill helpers would be way too helpful. What I believe is wrong about the scenario is that the helper SHOULDN'T have tried to help the no-tactic rider at all according to the rules put forward. Helpers are supposed to ignore no-tactic, save fitness and other helpers. They are ONLY supposed to help attackers, GC and final sprinters. There is one other possibility (though I didn't think the engine worked this way). If the assumption for helping someone with a flat is that you "give up your wheel", then your helper may have already been dropped when he helped the first rider and thus unable to help the second (main) rider when he crashed. Kurtinsc, that can't be. The main rider fell first. He couldn't be helped. Then, after that, the no tactic rider had a flat. He has been helped, so the helper was still in the peloton, otherwise he couldn't have helped. The main man could not have dropped before since he has flat 5 and was riding on 100% while I had 2 other riders, one with flat 2 and one with flat 3 riding on 70%. So my main man always should have been in the peloton and should have been helped by my helper who also was still in the peloton. And if a flat 2 and a flat 3 rider on 70% are able to follow, it should not be a problem for a helper, flat 3+ and a flat 5 guy to follow the pace after a fall.
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Post by Genomico on Dec 23, 2013 23:09:17 GMT 1
How much is the difference in TT between Vijver and Serberla's riders? How about the skills of helpers in their group? Perhaps attacking 5 times in one single race costs energy?
In the U21 race it seems that Arbuatti is helping Gommers, because he went back to him to try to get him back to the peloton. One low-skilled helper apparently not enough to get him back immediatly. Once they are behind the peloton, their speed is probably mostly made by the low-skilled helper, so not enough to get back to the peloton easily.
Edit: Ah, I didn't see the 2nd page of messages yet, will read them now.
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Post by Genomico on Dec 23, 2013 23:21:55 GMT 1
In the U21 it seems the following happened:
Gommers falls: 1 low-skilled helper is not enough to get him back immediatly. Nothing strange. Negri has a flat tire: 1 helper is enough to close the gap to the peloton. Nothing strange. THEN Gommers is behind the peloton and Arbuatti is going back to him to help him. Nothing strange.
Only strange thing is that when Arbuatti helps Gommers, he doesn't stick with him immediatly after the fall (but I guess what happens is that the fall for example costs 2 minutes and one low-skilled helper is making that 1 minute), but the simulation still sees Arbuatti in the peloton. But I don't think that can be called a bug.
So for the U21 race I don't really see strange things; they are more unlucky than bugged. Your only attacker falls and only has a lower-skilled helper to help him. The 2 of them cannot follow the speed of the peloton, which is still very high because noone attacked so far, so the best helpers of the peloton set the speed. When certain teams already have cyclists upfront, the helpers of those teams won't help to set the speed.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Dec 23, 2013 23:40:09 GMT 1
In the U21 it seems the following happened: Gommers falls: 1 low-skilled helper is not enough to get him back immediatly. Nothing strange. Negri has a flat tire: 1 helper is enough to close the gap to the peloton. Nothing strange. THEN Gommers is behind the peloton and Arbuatti is going back to him to help him. Nothing strange. Only strange thing is that when Arbuatti helps Gommers, he doesn't stick with him immediatly after the fall (but I guess what happens is that the fall for example costs 2 minutes and one low-skilled helper is making that 1 minute), but the simulation still sees Arbuatti in the peloton. But I don't think that can be called a bug. So for the U21 race I don't really see strange things; they are more unlucky than bugged. Your only attacker falls and only has a lower-skilled helper to help him. The 2 of them cannot follow the speed of the peloton, which is still very high because noone attacked so far, so the best helpers of the peloton set the speed. When certain teams already have cyclists upfront, the helpers of those teams won't help to set the speed. Not correct. I had only one helper. If he did stay with Gommers how could he helped Negri then?
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Post by Ab Normaal on Dec 23, 2013 23:52:10 GMT 1
The difference between Vijver and Seberla's riders on TT isn't very big. About one point more than the skill difference. And about the attacking part, I lost a lot of good results because my rider only attacked 3 times were others did 5. That way you can always think of something why it didn't work. In this case, you would say that the TT difference did it. In that case, how do you declare than the U21 race?
I don't think there were a lot of helpers today because ther aren't much leadership points. And if the TT counts as hard as the terrain skill, Gommers has 9. 5 for flat and 4 on TT. I wonder what helper in the peloton had 9 altogether on flat + TT.
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Post by Genomico on Dec 24, 2013 0:33:44 GMT 1
Not correct. I had only one helper. If he did stay with Gommers how could he helped Negri then? Like I said "Only strange thing is that when Arbuatti helps Gommers, he doesn't stick with him immediatly after the fall (but I guess what happens is that the fall for example costs 2 minutes and one low-skilled helper is making that 1 minute), but the simulation still sees Arbuatti in the peloton. But I don't think that can be called a bug." So what I mean: Arbuatti first helps Gommers in a mathecally way; which means e.g. that Gommers drops 1 minute instead of 2 minutes. But Arbuatti doesn't drop back yet. He does that AFTER the part ended, so he is still able to help Negri as well. So that is the first function for a helper; to help cyclists with a fall/flat. When the part ended the second function of a helper started; dropping back after the best GC/attacker/sprinter dropped behind. And that is what he did.
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