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Post by ElGringo on Jan 8, 2013 22:19:34 GMT 1
There is a very easy solution for material. Just don't buy the absolute minimum. I always buy way too much and every time I think about it and I check it. I always buy until I have at least 20k of each. That way you can forget some weeks without problems. You even can buy a bigger amount if you forget it a lot Its easy if you have many money. I don't have problems doing that, but there are teams from div 2 and div3 with only 200k/300k and they need to pay the riders and trainer, do they ask for a loan? ;D The way it is, the game only benefits teams that win and the gap will increase to other teams because they cannot afford a trainer with 1 skill 20 and pay to the riders. Giving a bigger sponsor bonus per week and increasing the number of suportes benefits all, the top manager, the medium manager, the new manager and more important benefits the game because we don't lose teams by bankrupt.
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Post by Quatannens on Jan 9, 2013 12:24:21 GMT 1
You don't need a trainer with 20. If you do so, it's your own choice, I just don't like to pay that much for my trainer. Teams going bankrupt is their own fault. If you give more sponsor bonus and more supporter benefits, they probably just will hire a more expensive trainer... It just has to be clear to managers that their trainer's wage is important. Maybe the look of the finances should be changed to make that clearer? And not automatically train trainers further every week, but let managers click every week on the train button so they are reminded of his future wage
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 9, 2013 13:15:50 GMT 1
You don't need a trainer with 20. If you do so, it's your own choice, I just don't like to pay that much for my trainer. Teams going bankrupt is their own fault. If you give more sponsor bonus and more supporter benefits, they probably just will hire a more expensive trainer... It just has to be clear to managers that their trainer's wage is important. Maybe the look of the finances should be changed to make that clearer? And not automatically train trainers further every week, but let managers click every week on the train button so they are reminded of his future wage I defend the option of a manager from a weak team could have a trainer at skill 20. Its already difficult to compete agains top manager and if a weak team have the possibility of training young riders at skill 20 with time then can close the gap, otherwise the hole is going to be biger and bigger.
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Post by Quatannens on Jan 9, 2013 14:34:47 GMT 1
No, that's just the point. It should be rare to see 20-skill trainers. The wages make it not a good choice for your finances. The team with a better trainer will train a little faster yes, but you can save a lot of money. The gap in cyclists get bigger, but not fast at all. The gap in finances maybe even is probably in the advantage of the team with the 17-trainer. The top teams have 25 good cyclists, but to be very competitive they need to have all kind of cyclists. To keep these cyclists competitive they have to train them on different skills, so a MS trainer. You can easily earn more money if you just stay with a monoskill trainer. Everybody seems just to think that if you don't have a 20-skill trainer you can't be competitive. But you save more money which allows you to buy better cyclists. If you can choose your good moments you don't even have to earn much less due to raceincome. It's just choices you make, and it is possible to have that expensive trainer, but I don't see the use of it.
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roller
Amateur Team
Posts: 123
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Post by roller on Jan 9, 2013 14:58:17 GMT 1
No, that's just the point. It should be rare to see 20-skill trainers. The wages make it not a good choice for your finances. The team with a better trainer will train a little faster yes, but you can save a lot of money. The gap in cyclists get bigger, but not fast at all. The gap in finances maybe even is probably in the advantage of the team with the 17-trainer. The top teams have 25 good cyclists, but to be very competitive they need to have all kind of cyclists. To keep these cyclists competitive they have to train them on different skills, so a MS trainer. You can easily earn more money if you just stay with a monoskill trainer. Everybody seems just to think that if you don't have a 20-skill trainer you can't be competitive. But you save more money which allows you to buy better cyclists. If you can choose your good moments you don't even have to earn much less due to raceincome. It's just choices you make, and it is possible to have that expensive trainer, but I don't see the use of it. I disagree with you. Your idea'd work fine if you don't add the income for the win-races. At the moment the prices for winning stages and jerseyes are bigger than the amount of money you can save with a 18-skilled trainer. And I'm not adding the effect on the number of fun and merchandising sold. So: more you win, more money you have and with a 20 skilled trainer your cyclist are still on the top vs. your opponent that gains less money, with a worst skilled trainer (=>less levelling up) and with worst cyclists. And the gap in money and ciclyst skills will grow...
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 9, 2013 15:40:16 GMT 1
And continuing what Roller says... ... the weaker team to survive needs to sell good riders to keep playing and the team that will buy is the top one because is the team with money. But you save more money which allows you to buy better cyclists. On the market we only see good riders if a team is closing or going bankrupt and need to make money to survive.
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Post by Quatannens on Jan 9, 2013 17:15:37 GMT 1
Ok, believe what you want guys, but I never had a 20-skill trainer and I probably never will. It seems you think that the guy with the 20-skill trainer has cyclists that all are better than your best. Even after several season's of training the gap still isn't big with absolute top-cyclists. On high levels it even matters less because if you train faster, your cyclist will start to train slower due to high skill. The cyclist that has a lower skill will still profit from faster training, which doesn't make the gap very big. I also wonder, if you find that 20-skill trainer so important, do you also neglect older cyclists? They also train a little slower than young cyclists, which increases the gap... A 20-skill trainer training 27 year old guys is total wierd for me (and believe me, there are enough players doing so).
A good example is the gap with total new managers. Even with a worse trainer, they can train faster than guys with a 20-skill trainer and high skill cyclists. Just because the higher skills train slower. The gap will never be closed, but it will become smaller. But as I said before, it's a personal choice and I would never recommend a very high skilled coach if you aren't one of the best teams of the game. You don't need maximum trained cyclists to win races.
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 9, 2013 23:01:00 GMT 1
Quatannens we have different points of view, but he focus here is the value of the suporters and the week price of suporters.
I will make an example.
A team has a trainer with skill 17 and pays 76588€
Have 25 riders in the team with a salary of 1500 and the total of salary is 37500€
Use material in all stages so more 7*5000=35000€
Total is 76588+37500+35000= 149088€ week
Its a team that don't win stages and cannot figh for jerseys so 0€
Buy material 2000 bidons/ 1500 caps/ 1200 sportbags/ T-shirt 1500 so cust 10000+15000+24000+22500=71500€
Total custs = 71500+149088=220588€ week
Money that enter
suporters 2000*12+1500*20+1200+40+1500+30=147000€
Week sponsor - 20000€
Total income = 167000€
Diference = -53588€ week
In 16 weeks -857408 €
I was being generous to the team because I consider only 1500€ salary for rider and even without stages win I use about 3000 suporters.
Now consider that the riders reach skill 7 and they don't have a good FA he needs to train another skill, contract finish and they want 4000/5000 etc...
I'm just saying that divisions with 12/15 managers playing is very hard for some of then to make points so they have to sell the best riders to get some money or bankrupt.
The game must be prepared to have teams that don't win but they can keep playing without going bankrupt so the base number of suporter must be increased and the week sponsor price.
So the week sponsor price must pay the trainer and the riders and the amouth material of suporters should be bonus of the performance of the team in a week.
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Post by NikeBoy on Jan 9, 2013 23:43:19 GMT 1
I am not chosing a side here, but I have taken a look at the current balance of all active teams in divs 1,2 and 3
In div1, from the 8 teams, the team with the least money, has still almost 3M on his account
In div2, from the 51 teams, the team with the least money has a little less than 100k, but he has a tremendous trainer cost of 400k !! There are 9 teams (above included) who have less than 1M, the 42 other teams have > 1M on their account
In div3, from the 242 teams, there are 14 teams with a balance < 0 45 teams with a balance < 1M (of which 5 of them have an investment > 1M) So almost 200 teams have > 1M on their account
The most impressive figure : the total amount of money (balance + investments) from all teams > 1.6 BILLION !! And that's even without the merchandise in stock ! If we would do a restart with 570 teams (300k each as starting money) = 171 Million The total amount of money in the game rises each week !!
I am not saying that there is no problem, for sure when you finish on a league position > 8 (9-20) you will have had a tough season, also financial wise. So I think that's why we will go to divisions with 12 teams (of which 4 relegate each season, so pos 9-12) to have a more financial balanced way.
I have to add that it was not the intention to have a 20 skilled trainer (I have 15 max !) as a reference ! a 15 skill is more than enough to keep track. The difference between the trainings is not that big (for sure when considering FA for skills > 7)
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 10, 2013 0:34:49 GMT 1
Thanks for the info Nikeboy and sorry if I give you extra work.
You show that numbers but to be right you need to put there all the teams that when bankrupt for all this time.
Your number only show one side of the balance, on the other side we have the info that in the beginning of January 2012 we here 1000 managers and now 570 and after the update we will go to lost some more. So from the 430 managers that leave the game how many here from bankrupt? Is there any info?
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Post by NikeBoy on Jan 10, 2013 7:09:02 GMT 1
I have done (part of) that exercise on the 10th of november : I have taken a look at the last 244 teams that went BOT at that time. Only 8 actually went bankrupt. 88 of those have logged in more than 5 times (after registration), 127 users only logged in ONCE !!
But I will have a look at all teams (if I still have the data) from the beginning of 2012
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 10, 2013 8:58:50 GMT 1
Ok thanks, but attencion that the real problem is going to be this season, because only now we have more then 12 managers per division in Div 2/3/4.
Till now there here some strong divisions but the majority of the leagues had few managers playing so they all get money.
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 10, 2013 9:09:38 GMT 1
I can use my brothers example, he already played in V1 and start like me in V2 so a manager with some experience, and went to the final of Euro 2012 agains EGV.
His team Id is 99. He has 84 victories till now and since the beginning he had a mono skill trainer.
Last season he here in 3.7 and was the team with more stages victories, 14 but div 3.7 was one of the divisions with more people winning stages. If you see is finances he is near 100€ so he need to sell riders to be able to compete this season or he goes bankrupt.
And this season will be more difficult with 15 active teams.
You have the example of BOBRAINS (343) that already spoke in the forum that will close account and start new, and put some riders for sale and fire the trainer, and watching is transfer history he has profit.
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Sponsor
Jan 10, 2013 10:10:41 GMT 1
Post by Ab Normaal on Jan 10, 2013 10:10:41 GMT 1
I think we have a lot of mathematicians under the managers. If someone can just make a calculation on the impact of having a 15, 17 and 20 trainer, then everybody can decide for themselves. I agree on some points with Quantannes, but also on some points with Melres. With a scheme, next to the costs, it is clear. Now a lot of managers think you need a 20 trainer. Nobody has an idea if this is correct or not. It would make an end to speculations.
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Sponsor
Jan 10, 2013 10:12:28 GMT 1
Post by NikeBoy on Jan 10, 2013 10:12:28 GMT 1
I can use my brothers example, he already played in V1 and start like me in V2 so a manager with some experience, and went to the final of Euro 2012 agains EGV. His team Id is 99. He has 84 victories till now and since the beginning he had a mono skill trainer. Last season he here in 3.7 and was the team with more stages victories, 14 but div 3.7 was one of the divisions with more people winning stages. If you see is finances he is near 100€ so he need to sell riders to be able to compete this season or he goes bankrupt. And this season will be more difficult with 15 active teams. You have the example of BOBRAINS (343) that already spoke in the forum that will close account and start new, and put some riders for sale and fire the trainer, and watching is transfer history he has profit. Team 99 has 3.7M of transfer debts (more bought than sold) Which trainer did 343 have ?
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