Green Jersey Sprints in Grand Tours

[whistler]

So, I got to thinking about how we might get a bit more tactical variety into the game, without requiring a change to the race engine.

The green points jersey goes to the best attacker on stages where there are the most intermediate sprints. In grand tours it might be nice to create room for teams to base some of their tactics around a rider like Cavendish/Kittel or even a Sagan.

Having a stage with no attack points for the sprinters in grand tours was a good idea, but that rider only really has interesting possibilities on 1 out of 10 or 11 stages, or at best maybe 1 stage a week.

What if the first attack point on flat stages and some mixed stages in grand tours didn't occur until the next race section AFTER the first intermediate sprint? That way there could be interest for the sprinters on most days of a big tour, and also a role for one or more helpers that actually might make a difference.

This could be done very quickly by just editing existing race files to remove attack points before the first sprint on such stages.

Disclaimer:
All changes advantage some teams/riders vs. others, and this change would lead to flat/hill riders who would have attacked early on such stages gaining slightly less time, since the attack point came later in the stage. In compensation for this, it would be easy enough to add some km to the first race section after the new first attack point with the same terrain as the old first attack point (say +10km for flat/downhill +7km for hill and +5 for mountain...).

[ElGringo]

Jun 5, 2015 17:59:59 GMT 1 whistler said:

So, I got to thinking about how we might get a bit more tactical variety into the game, without requiring a change to the race engine.

The green points jersey goes to the best attacker on stages where there are the most intermediate sprints. In grand tours it might be nice to create room for teams to base some of their tactics around a rider like Cavendish/Kittel or even a Sagan.

Having a stage with no attack points for the sprinters in grand tours was a good idea, but that rider only really has interesting possibilities on 1 out of 10 or 11 stages, or at best maybe 1 stage a week.

What if the first attack point on flat stages and some mixed stages in grand tours didn't occur until the next race section AFTER the first intermediate sprint? That way there could be interest for the sprinters on most days of a big tour, and also a role for one or more helpers that actually might make a difference.

This could be done very quickly by just editing existing race files to remove attack points before the first sprint on such stages.

Disclaimer:
All changes advantage some teams/riders vs. others, and this change would lead to flat/hill riders who would have attacked early on such stages gaining slightly less time, since the attack point came later in the stage. In compensation for this, it would be easy enough to add some km to the first race section after the new first attack point with the same terrain as the old first attack point (say +10km for flat/downhill +7km for hill and +5 for mountain...).

Is a very good idea and gives a new role to the sprinters. We just need to put the 1st intermediate sprint in different terrain this way sprinters can fight for green.

[Mike]

bare in mind that this game is pretty hard to understand for new managers and adding tactics only makes it more difficult

and gaining more ppl to play this game must be a primary objective

[Poekie]

True, but this change is easy to understand: first a sprint point, then the first attack point. Sounds good to me!

[whistler]

The change with delaying the first attack point until after the first intermediate sprint wouldn't involve anything complicated for managers to learn.

Players would just have the option of picking their best sprinter for grand tours and running that rider on 70% (i.e. making no change from the rider's default tactics when entered for a race), rather than 60%, on the earlier flat/mixed stages in order to have a chance to pick up some points to try to figure in the green jersey overall contest, then go at 100% on the sprinter's stage with no attack points to try to cap off any points already accumulated with a stage win.

I'm not sure whether the "final sprinter" tactic adds to a rider's ability in the intermediate sprints, but it would be great if it did - maybe with renaming it to "team sprinter" or somesuch rather than "final...".

As for how viable this would make non-attacking riders in the green jersey competition, that would depend on whether a rider on 70% could beat a rider on 100% effort (who will attack later in the stage) in the first intermediate sprint. Maybe others could comment from their experience on whether a rider trained to 7 flat, 7 sprint, 7 time trial riding at 100% might be beaten on a flat sprint by a rider at 70% with 7 flat, base level time trial and sprint of 7 + sprint training for the 22 or so weeks it would have taken to get TT to 7...

[bosko]

I think it's a great idea to improve the importance of a real sprinter in the big tours.
I thought at the intermediate sprints, the "final sprinters" ride at sprint skill, while the others ride at the terrain skill. So I guess a sprinter with sprint skill 11 riding at 70% beats an attacker with for example flat skill 7 riding at 100%. Maybe these things can be tested in fun races?
The biggest problem at this moment is the number of sprint stages. If I look at the 3 big tours this year I see real sprint stages:
- Giro: 0 out of 10 races
- Tour: 1 out of 11 races
- Vuelta: 0 out of 10 races
I think there should be 2 sprint stages at each big tour (maybe 1 in the 5-day tours laike Tirreno).
Another possible solution is that in the real mountain stages (finish on mountain terrain), the winner gets mountain points, but no sprint points.

[Ab Normaal]

Jun 10, 2015 9:33:24 GMT 1 bosko said:

I think it's a great idea to improve the importance of a real sprinter in the big tours.
I thought at the intermediate sprints, the "final sprinters" ride at sprint skill, while the others ride at the terrain skill. So I guess a sprinter with sprint skill 11 riding at 70% beats an attacker with for example flat skill 7 riding at 100%. Maybe these things can be tested in fun races?
The biggest problem at this moment is the number of sprint stages. If I look at the 3 big tours this year I see real sprint stages:
- Giro: 0 out of 10 races
- Tour: 1 out of 11 races
- Vuelta: 0 out of 10 races
I think there should be 2 sprint stages at each big tour (maybe 1 in the 5-day tours laike Tirreno).
Another possible solution is that in the real mountain stages (finish on mountain terrain), the winner gets mountain points, but no sprint points.

Yes, I thought so too in the beginning.
But problem with sprint stages is that, on contrary of real life, the best sprinter always wins.
All sprintstages in 1:1 are won by Audoux, already 3 seasons in a row.
All of it. He is already on 4th place for best rider of the division. If we make more sprint stages...
There is just not enough variety in winners.

[bosko]

If you think longterm, if the importance of sprinters rises, more trainers will train a sprinter, so there will be more topsprinters. Off course, that wouldn't be for the first seasons.
The problem you mention that Audoux is on 4th place in the league is in my opinion because too few points are given for the standings in the tours. Maybe the winner of a small tour should get 150points and the winner of a big tour 200?

[Quatannens]

No points are given for standings in the tours if I'm correct.

To add something to the sprint-thing. If there would be time for some programming I would like to see a checkbox for an attacker/sprinter to select if they participate in sprints (both normal and mountain). If you don't participate you have more chance to win the stage because you save some fitness or so.

[whistler]

Attack points have been delayed until later in some stages of the 3 grand tours this season, allowing more of a role for helpers and non-breakaway sprinters in these tours.