struggling with new tactics and division

[wheelnut]

I need some advice on tactics with the new race engine as I am struggling...I have been promoted to a new division and the 7 or 8 active teams are wiping the floor at present. I am trying new tactics to no avail. It might be my 2 or 3 skilled cyclists are inferior. or maybe I am approaching things all wrong?

Any advice for under performing or inferior teams?

I am not after glory just a few points around the margin.

In the old version of the game I tried racing in just the one off races avoiding tours and training flat.

My team is Medway cc (7040) and my division is Division 4:36

[lee1950]

Well, I can tell you that Pass Forward has some very good riders, so he should eventually win your division. Banania is 2nd best.

You will probably be fighting Argos and Viitorul for 3rd place. So focus on training, and adding one or two riders to improve for next season.

(How do you figure out relative team strength? I do it like this: Sort each team's cyclists by Transfervalue. Then select the 3rd best from each team, and add them to your Shortlist. Sort the Shortlist by Transfervalue. The first time you sort it lists them from lowest to highest; the second time you sort, it flips them from highest to lowest. You can't add your own rider to the Shortlist. I leave two or three of my new transfers on the Shortlist all the time, to get around this. Or, you can go to the Transfer list, find a cyclist for sale with a TV ~ to your 3rd best rider, and add him to your Shortlist. If you want to be more thorough, add the 5th and 10th best riders from each team, too. But the 3rd best from each team will give you a pretty good idea who is loaded with talent....)

Some things that I have done in past when overmatched:

- try to get a youth in every tour - it's not a lot of points but everyone helps
- save your best Steering/Balance riders for the grand tours - sometimes the ability to avoid falls and flats can keep them up in the overall
- try to 'steal' a stage in a long tour. Save a good hill/mountain rider for a stage when you think your competitors will be riding at 70%, and set him to 100%. It ruins him for the overall, but often gives you a result

Good luck!

[wheelnut]

Thanks...good advice i think.

I agree with you maybe 3rd place is the best I can achieve if that! One of the problems of not getting anywhere close is that you spend money to enter and do not get any from winnings in return.

I have taken your advice over the balance and steering and have a spreadsheet with all my riders adding ST and BAL together to get a 'tour' rating. I have then organised my 23 riders into 5 teams of 5 (I know 2 missing) and designated them main tour 1, main tour2, short tour 1, short tour 2, and race 1. This way I can target the riders best to compete in the races and tours they are able to. I have also balanced the teams with a climber, leader, sprinter and 2 doms.

I like your transfer value trick and will try this

What age does a rider need to be classified as young, is it 20?

I have tried to nick an odd stage as you suggest but short tours pretty much everyone is on the money for every stage. The longer tours may have an odd stage to nick.

With my tactics I am trying all things, maybe concentrate on the the gren jersey, polka dot or yellow and not all three (not that i am getting anywhere near any of them at present)!

I am training mountain so i guess the polka dot jersey will be the one to aim for increasingly.

Thanks again for your advice...

[lee1950]

Next:

It looks like you are only racing against 5 other teams atm.

snixies, dean, sporta, and Taxandria are botteams; plus, megashooter's last loggin was Aug 27, so it looks like he's on the road to Botville.

Therefore, the worst you can do in any race is #26-30.

imo, 23 riders are not enough to race effectively. I'd say 30 is the minimum. Otherwise you have to skip races, or race at 70%, 70%, 75% in short tours and 85% in one-day classics to stay at 100% for races the next week.

If your budget allows, hire 7 more riders so you have 6 teams. You can plan to re-sell them once the Giro starts, and you don't need 6 teams for a while. Which means you don't need to train everyone, either.

Even an inexpensive 5-1-3 or 3-1-5 or 2-2-5 or 5-2-2 cyclist will fill your squad out and give you a shot at a few more points. I expect some of those 1-day races next week to be lightly attended as other managers run out of 100% Fitness riders, and there will be some points available.

[wheelnut]

I have taken on 3 more riders as you suggest with stats similar to the above. I will look for a couple more maybe but I dont really want more than 30 due to wage bill.

I am looking to target a few of the one day races next week but unsure to run at 100% or at 80 - 90%. If I go for 100% I will not be able to enter or races and short tours before the big ones.

If I do get get 10th - 15th with my average riders, do I get many points or money for this? If not no point really entering?

I tried the trick with the TV as mentioned above and yes as I feared I come out about 5th not 3rd!

[lee1950]

Sept 20, 2012 10:38:27 GMT 1 wheelnut said:

What age does a rider need to be classified as young, is it 20?

Yes. 20 and under compete for youth points (10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1; iirc).

[lee1950]

Sept 21, 2012 13:57:30 GMT 1 wheelnut said:

I have taken on 3 more riders as you suggest with stats similar to the above. I will look for a couple more maybe but I dont really want more than 30 due to wage bill.

I am looking to target a few of the one day races next week but unsure to run at 100% or at 80 - 90%. If I go for 100% I will not be able to enter or races and short tours before the big ones.

If I do get get 10th - 15th with my average riders, do I get many points or money for this? If not no point really entering?

I tried the trick with the TV as mentioned above and yes as I feared I come out about 5th not 3rd!

From the wiki: points for 1-day races:
Position Points (division)
1 100
2 60
3 40
4 30
5 20
6 15
7 10
8 9
9 8
10 7
11 6
12 5
13 4
14 3
15 2
16-20 1 (I think the wiki is wrong - #16-20 do not get points )

Not a lot, but if only 5 teams are entered, you only need to beat a few other riders. If only 4 teams enter, you only have to beat the bots.

For tours, it is harder to get points: only 1-thru-10 place.

1. 60
2. 40
3. 25
4. 15
5. 12
6. 10
7. 8
8. 6
9. 4
10. 2


Fitness management is very important. It's very frustrating to go to set tactics for a race only to discover your best racer is only at 90%. So I chart it carefully (that way I only make two or three mistakes every season!!).

The key for me is to end up with 80%, 60%, or 40% on a rider when the Sunday update runs.

- For 1-day tours, I ride at 85% (15+5) or 100% (30+5). There is no point in racing at 70% unless you are planning to race him twice that week. He will recover 20 fitness points on Sunday, so anything less than 85% is pointless.

- For 3-day tours (when all three stages occur in the same Mon-Sun week) I will race something like 70%, 70%, 95% (5+5+25+5) so he ends up at 60% fitness, and fully recovers in two Sunday updates. You can race at 70%, 75%, 70% and have him rested for the following week, but he probably won't get any points for you. For a helper, 70%, 70%, 75% might be okay.

- For 3-day tours (when a Sunday update splits the race up): you want to watch the calendar very closely, or else you will miss an opportunity. If the first stage is Saturday and the 2nd stage is Monday, you can race at 85% on Saturday and be fully Fit again for the final two stages. You will almost always see some riders at 70% on that first stage, and that gives you a chance 15% higher.

For Grand Tours, you have options for each of your 5 riders:
- Use a strong rider GC, racing him at the minimum % on most stages (higher when there are fewer than 4 stages that week!), and hope he avoids Flats and Falls better than your opponents, while using your other riders as Helpers to keep him in the main peloton so he doesn't lose too much time. It will help a lot if his TT is at least 2. (0 or 1 TT is a poor choice for grand tour GC riders).

- Use most of your riders as Helpers to support your GC hope

- Pick a couple of stages you might be able to win or score big points, and plan to 'burn' one of your helpers. There will be an opportunity on most of the regular stages to 'steal' a win, if you have a rider who fits some of the terrain. He'll need to race at close to 100% to have a chance, and he'll be useless the rest of the tour, so it's a gamble. And he might fail, and be wasted for no result. You can Attack with him or set him as Final Sprinter, depending on your leadership points, the terrain, and your riders.

- Get some Mountain points. Send your best climber out on a couple of stages with lots of king of the mountain (KOM) points. If you get lucky a few times, he'll end the race in the top-5 of the KOM standings, and win you some extra cash. Sometimes, even 3 points will be enough to get a top-10 KOM finish.


Basically - you have to have the attitude of one of the French Continental teams in the Tour de France: There is no way you are going to win the Tour. But you can set some achievable goals, and make the race interesting!
- Try to get your GC guy a top-10 finish.
- Try to get at least one top-3 finish in two stages.
- Grab some KOM points.

[Genomico]

I thought this was a tipic in the newbie forum, but Lee is making this an advanced class ;D

[lee1950]

Sept 24, 2012 13:51:18 GMT 1 Genomico said:

I thought this was a tipic in the newbie forum, but Lee is making this an advanced class ;D

Hmmm. The fact that I am currently 7th in my division argues that it might not be as advanced as I'd like it to be!


I'm getting a top-10 finish every day, though. So, that's about right for a Pro Continental squadra.

[dinamok]

very interesting thread, much more than wiki...

i think that this game need some more info for the players

[lee1950]

Sept 26, 2012 13:51:26 GMT 1 dinamok said:

very interesting thread, much more than wiki...

i think that this game need some more info for the players

If we knew more we would share more!! A couple of things to consider as you build your team:

- Flat looks less important in the new RE, unless it is supported by Sprint. A Flat-7/Sprint-4 will finish at 15 (7+4+4). A Flat-11/Sprint-1 will finish at 13 (11+1+1). So in an even sprint (same Fitness, same effort %, same Helpers) the 7 Flat will likely win.
- Someone pointed out elsewhere, that it is much faster to train a cyclist's Sprint skill from 1 up to 4, than it is to train Flat from 7 up to 10.
- Also - on Flat stages, your Hill and Mountain riders seem to be able to stay in the main group with Flat skills of 1 or 2, as long as they have helpers
... (note - this will be less true on final stages when Helpers are riding at 90%+.)
... (note - this may also change when update 2 arrives and Bot riders are expected to have less effect on the peloton's pace. If it works as I expect, the bot riders will be dropped much faster than they are now. So it's possible the peloton will start chasing down breaks more often.)
- Mountain definitely has impact. The 2nd stage of Catalunya had no Flat KMs, and the peloton ripped apart over the big climbs.

If I were starting out today:
- I'd hire a Mountain-15 trainer (or even Mountain-12), and train him to Mountain-18 (-19 and -20 might hurt your budget) and then start training the trainer in Sprint or TT.
- I'd add 10 riders (for a total of 25) to my squad, all with at least Flat-4, which might be enough that you would never have to train Flat.
- Plan to train everyone on Mountain until they hit 7, then see if they train fast or slow on Mountain. Switch the low Mountain-FA guys to your trainer's 2nd skill.
- Eventually I'd buy a few well-trained 1-day riders (High Flat and good Hill) to fill out the squad.

[wheelnut]

Wow thanks Lee!

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to communicate all that information. I have been doing most of that but had not quite optimised my fitness of my riders to that degree. I have been getting quite frustrated putting my riders to often on 100 percent especially in the last stage. This effectively had wiped them out for several weeks and rarely had been getting many points.

I now have 32 riders and 2 at 19 so have a chance of some points through the white jersey. There skills are low but just being young will get a few points on the tours I am sure.

I am training mountain with a 15 level coach and training him in flat. I might swap back to mountain however as you suggest to get to 18.

Since my post I have picked up some points and I am a solid 5th in my division with 157. This will be ok as I will not get promotion but have no chance of relegation with over half the division being bots.

[lee1950]

It's always nice to get positive feedback.

I'm glad you are getting a feel for the Race Engine. You can use this season to experiment with tactics, and learn what works.

I try to limit myself to one or two riders at 100% effort in any race. imo, the hardest stage to win is the final stage, as there are more cyclists riding at higher effort in that stage. Gambling on Stage 1 or 2 of a short tour makes more sense to me.


I'm up to 4th in my Division after a good week. I was able to win the KOM jersey in Catalunya (all the KOM climbs came on Stage 2, and I managed to get a climber into an early 2-man break). Also placed another rider 2nd on that stage, and 2nd overall in the Tour, but I had to burn both of them for the Giro. Totally worth it.


32 riders is a lot (I know - I have 38 atm ), so you probably don't want to train all of them. Once the Giro starts you have three updates for everyone else to recover Fitness, so you can sell off a couple of those 32. If you got down to 25 again, you'd still be in good shape until after the Vuelta. (There are 5 1-day classics the week following Beijing!!!)

[Ab Normaal]

Wheelnut, I was in the division last year with Pass Forward and WC Banania.

I won the division, but the best mountain riders were from WC Banania. Also he has good sprinters. Pass Forward had the best Flat riders. I won't tell more because that isn't fair to them. But basically I hardly won a stage in a grand tour. So I put my best cyclist in the smaller tours and won them all.

Since both Pass Forward and WC Banania didn't have multi skill riders, I also won the GC of 2 grand tours.

That is how I won the division.

Also you can better skip a 1 day race every once in a while and focus more on a reace totally. With four riders on 85% and one on100%, you won't get rid of Banania's sprinters.

So choose your battles!

[wheelnut]

Thanks Ab,

I had a third in GC recently on a short tour so I take note of what you say. Pass forward have hardly entered a race in two weeks so I wonder if he has given up?

WC Banana are dominating things at present and I have just moved up to fourth. With Lee's help I am now gaining some points and money in races. I now have 33 riders however!