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Post by Il Padrino on Nov 16, 2008 18:25:22 GMT 1
The way contracts are renewed has been changed drastically. We felt that with the old method, there was no real negotiation process; the cyclist either agreed or not with what the player proposed, usually with bad results for the player. The cyclist's reaction was usually unpredictable and unlogical.
With the new method, we hope to solve these problems, by having a two-way interaction between player and cyclist.
The negotation process is now split up into 4 steps.
- Step 1: initiates the negotiations. If the cyclist's mood is low, you will have to make the cyclist at least reasonably happy before he will actually want to negotiate. You can do this by giving him either a one time bonus and then continue the negotiations, or immediately offer him a new, standard contract, which the cyclist will always accept (this will also end the negotiations)
- Step 2: you tell the cyclist how long you want him to stay. The cyclist then responds with how much he wants to earn. The wage depends on several factors, such as his mood, his marketvalue and the duration you proposed.
If you accept the wage proposal, the negotiations end. If you don't, the process continue to step 3.
- Step 3: you make your own wage proposal, which, in turn, the cyclist evaluates. If it is much too low, the cyclist will reject immediately. If it is more than high enough, he will accept.
If it is somewhere in between, the cyclist will want to continue the negotiations.
- Step 4: in order to cross the gap between your wage proposal and the cyclist's, you can offer several bonuses. In this step, you first inform the cyclist how many guaranteed races he will participate in per season. Then you can propose several other bonuses.
The types of bonuses available depends on the amount of division points he has earned in the current and previous season. The more points earned, the more bonuses you have available to offer and a higher chance to reach an agreement.
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Post by rarau on Nov 16, 2008 23:51:59 GMT 1
1.if the mood is high example delighted will be step 1 ? 2.what it means standard contract ?
3.standard contract is only for low mood ?? 4. how is the correlation between duration and wage ? more weeks more wage or more weeks low wage
5. which, in turn, the cyclist evaluates.. what it means "in turn" ?? 6 in what situation ciclist will leave the team ?? 7. what it will happen if owner will stop negociations for example in the middle of step 3 ??
8. how will influence guaranted races the negociations ?
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Post by zimba on Nov 17, 2008 12:35:30 GMT 1
I've already been experimenting with the new contract negotiations. Here my first feelings and notes : - If only I knew earlier about the transfer value change. Then I would have offered a new contract to my better cyclists. As now they'll be asking more, I guess. Though will see that for sure later on, when their contracts will be running out. - Two of my cyclists still had 1 week of contract left. As I needed to offer them new contracts anyway, I immediately did. And the conclusion was somewhat bizarre. The average one wanted like 300% of his old wage. While the good one only asked about 50% more. - The average one looks a lot like an other of my riders, but has 1 less in Flat/Downhill/Timetrial and 2 less in Mountain. As a result of the new transfer values, he's now being paid more than his slightly better 'twin brother', and for a shorter period as well. - BUG : I offered the good one some bonuses. 1800 for victory, 2700 for points/mountain jerseys, 3600 for time jersey. But checking his current contract details, it shows 1800 for victory, 2700 for points/mountain jerseys, 1800 for time jersey ! - Before I got to the bonuses, I had to offer him the number of races to participate to. I couldn't check his current number of races participated to, as leaving the page would result in quitting negotiation and possible mood loss. I found this rather annoying. As I wasn't sure of the number, I offered a rather low amount. When finished, I noticed that I easily could have offered about 7 more races, which might have resulted in quite a different (better) final contract. Also, I wasn't totally sure that the races already participated to were counting. So also because of this I only offered a very low amount. - SPELLING BUG (dutch) : "dit beëindig t" - If I recall right, I noticed dutch & english all mixed up in the contract negotiation process. - New cyclists now have lower wages than the previously found youth riders, because of the dropped transfer value. I thought by negotiating on a new contract with the ones from previous weeks, I would have been able to lower their wages. But I guess it isn't possible. I already tried anyway, and only thing that happened was some mood loss. Because of this, we now have quite equal riders in the team, with the one being paid 3500 a week, the other not even 1000. - I also tried negotiating with a guy with very low mood, to see what happens. Offered him the 1-time bonus, as I thought his mood would go up immediately. But it didn't happen. It only made negotiation starting. But didn't really want to offer him a new contract, so finished the negotiation. Then checked my finances and noticed the 15.000 was paid. I thought you would only need to pay it when negotiation would be successful. Result is : nothing really happened, but 15.000 gone. So beware ! Anyway, I won't experiment any further now. It sure will be an interesting challenge to cope with the new system. But it's a pity that there seem to be some flaws, though. I'm not saying that all the things I mentioned here are flaws. It's only a reflection of my first thoughts on the new negotiating system. Some of them can be taken by heart, in order to improve. Others are probably just wrong assumptions by myself, and can be neglected. To finish, this question : Since long, we can offer a yearly % on wage increase. Is it working by now ? As I've been offering this long before, and so far never noticed a change.
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Post by Il Padrino on Nov 17, 2008 18:20:10 GMT 1
I've already been experimenting with the new contract negotiations. Here my first feelings and notes : - If only I knew earlier about the transfer value change. Then I would have offered a new contract to my better cyclists. As now they'll be asking more, I guess. Though will see that for sure later on, when their contracts will be running out. True, but something like that can't be avoided when making changes to financial aspects. The requested wage depends also on the cyclist's mood. There's probably a big difference between those cyclists regarding their mood. Can you explain a bit more? Are you comparing 2 contracts created with the new method, or are you comparing with the old method? That is a visual bug on the contract details page. I discovered it when working on the negotiations, but I forgot to include it in the update yesterday. It should be ok now. Ok, I will add all current contract details on the page, so that you don't have to open 2 browser screens or anything. Where did you see this? Same question as above. The wage is very much linked to the mood (this is the same as before). What you could do, is make the cyclist a bit less happy by offering very low wages a few time. When his mood is lower, he will ask a lower wage. When paying the one time bonus, the cyclist's mood will be set to 50. This is still rather low (65 is the default, 'content'), but enough to continue with the negotiations. When you then end the negotiations, the cyclist will be disappointed because you ended it, and lose, again, some mood. So you can't just give a bonus to increase the mood without continuing the negotiations. The bonus was not meant for that (increase mood). Not everything are flaws. But you need to take more into account (especially the cyclists' mood). Yes, this is still there. It's part of the bonus. But bonuses only become available if the wage you offered is just not enough to satisfy the cyclist.
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Post by Il Padrino on Nov 17, 2008 18:32:58 GMT 1
1.if the mood is high example delighted will be step 1 ? 2.what it means standard contract ? A 'low' mood is 'not very happy' or worse. Yes, this is a way to immediately make the cyclist 'ok' again. But the wage will be higher then what you could negotiate. So in the long run, it's better to negotiate a new wage than to break the contract and immediately sign a new one, even with the one time bonus included. The longer the duration, the higher the wage. After all, the cyclist will have to wait longer before he can negotiate a new raise. After you have evaluated the cyclist's wage proposal, the cyclist will evaluate your proposal. When his contract runs out (duration = 0) or if the cyclist didn't participate in the agreed minimum amount of races, at the end of the season. The cyclist will lose a little bit of mood. Hence the warning in the step 1: "During the negotiation process, the cyclist's mood will drop temporarily. Please remember that breaking off the negotiations (by leaving this page) will not please the cyclist." The more guaranteed races, the better for the cyclist and the more chance you have to reach an agreement. But remember, you will have to let the cyclist participate in the agreed amount of races! If you don't, the cyclist will leave at the end of the season, because you broke the contract and the agreement.
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Post by Mike on Nov 17, 2008 20:05:33 GMT 1
the amount of agreed races: Do the amount of races allready participated in the past count as well in the agreed amount per season? I mean is it per season ?
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Post by NikeBoy on Nov 17, 2008 21:09:00 GMT 1
It is per season, BUT only counting from the moment the contract is signed. So, no, already past races do NOT count
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Post by NikeBoy on Nov 17, 2008 21:25:18 GMT 1
First of all I want to thank you for experimenting with this new contractsystem and sharing the results with us !! IP already covered most of your remarks, maybe I can elaborate on some of them a little bit more ... I've already been experimenting with the new contract negotiations. Here my first feelings and notes : - Two of my cyclists still had 1 week of contract left. As I needed to offer them new contracts anyway, I immediately did. And the conclusion was somewhat bizarre. The average one wanted like 300% of his old wage. While the good one only asked about 50% more. Maybe the wage of the "good one" was already high compared to his skills and that's why he is not asking for a lot more, while the "average one" had a rather low wage. That's the "transition stage" we are into when things are changed in an already running game. After a maximum of 75 weeks, all contracts are renewed at least once and these things are gone. As said before, already participated race do NOT count in a new contract. It are the races FROM the moment the contract is signed A cyclist will never accept a wage decrease !! (what would you say if your boss gave you deduction in wage !) Only by breaking the contract (when the mood is lower than 'ok', but maybe this option should always be available) you can get a lower wage than before. As said by IP, when paying the one time bonus, the mood is "reset" to 'ok' (50), but when ending the negotiations a little mooddrop is given, so he will be 'unhappy' (? correct?) BUT... the one time bonus is not lost ! The mood did increase ! Once again, thank you for experimenting and highlighting some good points to improve the system ! Your question is more like : is the wage increase done AT ALL when the season is over or is the wage still the same as last season, right ? Good question, IP to answer !
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Post by rarau on Nov 18, 2008 12:18:16 GMT 1
Nov 16, 2008, 11:51pm, rarau wrote: 1.if the mood is high example delighted will be step 1 ? 2.what it means standard contract ?
A 'low' mood is 'not very happy' or worse.
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i don't understand, please explain again.
3. my question was punctually : for very happy and delighted will be step 1? yes/no ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only by breaking the contract (when the mood is lower than 'ok', but maybe this option should always be available) you can get a lower wage than before. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- what it means breaking the contract ? from what i understand breaking the contract is when cyclyst have 0 weeks and after that he will leave the team (so i don't understand what you said)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As said by IP, when paying the one time bonus, the mood is "reset" to 'ok' (50), but when ending the negotiations a little mooddrop is given, so he will be 'unhappy' (? correct?) BUT... the one time bonus is not lost ! The mood did increase ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
one time bonus is ... Bonus for winning a race: bonus jersey, mountain jersey ?? i don't understand that also. So a player who receive a bonus could have a mood under "content" ?? {but this kind of players are the best players from a team}
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Post by Il Padrino on Nov 18, 2008 15:49:21 GMT 1
Please, read the information in this topic carefully and then look at the contract negotiations page. It's not as hard to understand as you think or try to make us think For example, the one time bonus is very obviously a one time bonus. One time = only once. Bonus for winning a race = every race != one time.
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Post by NikeBoy on Nov 18, 2008 20:22:37 GMT 1
Nov 16, 2008, 11:51pm, rarau wrote: 1.if the mood is high example delighted will be step 1 ? No, step 1 is only available when mood < 'ok'. In step 1 you will have 3 options : 1. Pay a one time bonus to improve the mood to 'ok' 2. Break open the contract of the cyclist and sign a new standard contract of 45 weeks and no bonusses. 3. Stop the negotiation 45 weeks with no extra bonusses Everything below 'ok' no You can break "open" a contract. Both manager and cyclist agree on a brand new contract and throw away the old one. Offcourse, some fee have to be paid. One time bonus is pure cash for the cyclist. You pay him, just that one time, a certain amount of money and this will make the cyclist increase in mood to 'ok'. Hope this helps...
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Post by rarau on Nov 18, 2008 20:52:31 GMT 1
Please, read the information in this topic carefully and then look at the contract negotiations page. It's not as hard to understand as you think or try to make us think For example, the one time bonus is very obviously a one time bonus. One time = only once. Bonus for winning a race = every race != one time. maybe not all players know english soo good, not all have proficient score. Not all have CPE or CAE on english so i think my question was good because maybe i don't understand so good what you write ; i don't said you write smth ununderstandbly but i don't understood all . And of course I look negotations page. I'm on B1 to B2 nivel of english, i don't like but this is my nivel (i think is better but this was my score). When i will be on C1 i will not ask to rephrase some words
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Post by rarau on Nov 18, 2008 21:01:15 GMT 1
Quote: Only by breaking the contract (when the mood is lower than 'ok', but maybe this option should always be available) you can get a lower wage than before. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- what it means breaking the contract ? from what i understand breaking the contract is when cyclyst have 0 weeks and after that he will leave the team (so i don't understand what you said) You can break "open" a contract. Both manager and cyclist agree on a brand new contract and throw away the old one. Offcourse, some fee have to be paid. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- tk NikeBoy much better now ;D for now i don't have other questions, i think aprox 99 % is clear only when i will make a negociations with one my best players who is delighted form i will know if i understand or not all from this topic . For players "content" and under i understand perfectly. so like a resume... my very happy/delighted players will begin with step 2 where I will make him an offer in weeks (for example 10-15 weeks for ask me a lower wage), then he will ask me X money and I will offer X or X-10 % and my players will accept this ?? step 4 with "how many guaranteed races he will participate" frightened me
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Post by zimba on Nov 20, 2008 1:41:59 GMT 1
It is per season, BUT only counting from the moment the contract is signed. So, no, already past races do NOT count Oh no. So when offered to let a rider participate in 8 races and he already participated to 10 races, he still needs to participate to 8 more races before the end of the season
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Post by zimba on Nov 20, 2008 1:55:36 GMT 1
A cyclist will never accept a wage decrease !! (what would you say if your boss gave you deduction in wage !) Only by breaking the contract (when the mood is lower than 'ok', but maybe this option should always be available) you can get a lower wage than before. So you're saying you can break a contract and then offer one with a lower wage for cyclists with low mood ? Then what's the downside of breaking a contract ? Or isn't there one ? Your question is more like : is the wage increase done AT ALL when the season is over or is the wage still the same as last season, right ? Good question, IP to answer ! Well, I've already reported about this in the Bug section : peloton.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=pelotonbugs&action=display&thread=2830Never noticed a wage increase before. So up to now, you could easily promise your riders the max. yearly increase, as it didn't happen anyway. Maybe yearly means : 365 days later, instead of 1 peloton season later. But still, I guess first time I promised such a wage increase, is already more than 365 days ago.
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