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Post by ElGringo on Apr 29, 2020 0:02:34 GMT 1
Managers ask for changes in the game and when we want to apply many are all agains changes, I know this is part of human nature to be oposite when you are out off the safe zone but if we want to do this changes is to spice something and be off the routine.
Is easy to argue agains but I would like to see if you guys step forward if the game needs, Arno pay the server for one more year but is effort is huge, this don't cover the expenses and in his personal life there are things happens and he need to use the money for other stuff, do you guys next year are prapared to fight for the game and help paying the server?
We play this model for years and I don't see the number of manager growing Poekie, so if we change we are prepare to face the uncertain because we are stagnant and slowly dying and we need to do something and we decided that changing the training model would be one of the things to change. Many managers left because the time they spend to develop a team and if you look in the forum you will find statments related to riders training.
I have an headstrong and I keep positive and with focus but I have to agree with Frank when he says that he keep losing motivation when people argues about the game, if we don't change if because we don't change, if he change is because we change and since we cannot satisfy everyone we stop searching for something new to add to the game. Frank have been more absent because of real life and for types of complaining in game and I keep making an effort to bring him back to help and give suggestions to improve the game, but we are trying to do it now and what will Frank, think? Should be quite calm home without upseat his head with the game but he do it for all of us and we should be gratefull for the time he spend learning the code and try to make the game better.
Will never be a perfect model, is the possible one that we present with our free time that we give to the game for all that love cycling and want to have some fun to play just that.
Changing the number of stages isn't the solution, in the old times there were few races/stages and everybody wanted more and with a larger calendar so redute to half don't make sense because you, Pollyjean and other will argue why there is tour X and not tour Y, why there isn't all classics etc.. About having 10 top riders all managers can have it, there will be different stages/tours different types of terrain and that makes the changes, and there will be a lot of top riders in different teams and with differente characteristics for different kind of stages. If there is the need and if we see that the age decreasing should be sooner we adjust and star reducing the skills earlier, just testing we can make it work.
About new managers they win a lot in div 5 but they don't know how to play correctly and when they reach div 4 is easy to lost motivation and stop playing because they don't dig the game and lear how to play correctly, even how to select a trainer, so that will keep happening keeping the current training or the new one.
I just ask to people to vote and if they want to express why they vote in option A, B,C or D to do it.
To finish: I'm just like you guys - I want to be a good human being. We are doing our best, and we are working to make a better game for all.
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Post by eboese on Apr 29, 2020 0:28:55 GMT 1
ElG, I can understand you frustration, but I honestly don't see a lot of people complaining in this thread. I only see a bunch of die-hard managers, many with different opinions (as could be expected), trying to think along and give their view on the situation. This will be a very major change, you can't really expect people not to comment on that, especially if you create a poll.
Reality is that we will never come to a solution that will satisfy everyone, some people will be unhappy and some will be happy (hopefully most). I think a significant portion of the managers agrees that something needs to happen and in the end it's up to you guys to decide what to do, but I don't think it hurts to do a bit of brainstorming, especially considering the small community that we have at this moment.
I have no doubt you guys will do what is right for the game and I would like to thank you, Frank and Arno once again for the time, effort and money you have put in to keep this amazing game alive, it's truly something special. Please don't get too frustrated with people 'complaining' though, because most of these comments are made by very dedicated (and sometimes annoying, like myself) people who love the game as well.
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Post by Mike on Apr 29, 2020 7:25:20 GMT 1
Ok after reading last post. Thx for keeping the game running, change it how you want to. Do it as quick as possible. No complaints here
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Post by JOOP Cycling Team on Apr 29, 2020 7:28:19 GMT 1
I think there is a lot of value and knowledge in the game. Only as a new manager it is a quest. When I started the game I did not understand. By sending thousands of emails and by asking a lot I have become wiser. This did not happen automatically .. It is quite complicated, we can help with that by ACTIVELY helping others in the game.
Wikipedia page can be rewritten. Not enough useful information.
We can think of a buddy project ..
A rider like Moser cycling is helped by reporting on a cycling page.
The strength of the game is playing it together and helping each other.
Be active, do something with your knowledge..
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Post by damiano on Apr 29, 2020 7:37:22 GMT 1
I spent time on how to improve training before this pool was created. this was my old plan, perhaps useless at this point. 1 allow double skill training. 2 allow loan of the riders.
point 1 requirements: trainer with at least 3 skills at 15 or with at lest 2 skills greater than 18 You can train 2 skills than could be linked ( Mountain-downhill, flat-TT, Hill-sprint) in the same time. It will increase speed about 30%.
Example: rides skill lower than 7: trainer 15 mountain and 15 downhill individual train:about 5 weeks each, 2 skills improved in 10 weeks. double train: both skills increase in 7 weeks.
Example rides skill more than 7( both from 7 to 8 ) with good FA mountain and no FA downhill: individual train: mountain about 5 weeks, downhill about 10 , 2 skills in 15 weeks. double trainer: both skills increase in 10 weeks.
So each training parameter will remain the same: FA , trainer skill, age but just increase speed training. Every rider trained by double train will start to decrease at 28y ( maybe as if was trained by fitness trainer ) It means having two kind of riders. SINGLE trainer, slower increasing but for long time. DOUBLE, faster increasing faster decreasing. DOUBLE 27y with fight with SINGLE 33y but they will disappear at 30y. DOUBLE must be marked in some way. once trained in double it will always be marked and managers have to know that before buy them.
point 2 I saw high single skill trainer in div 3 -4-5. Loan with skill to be trained required could allows young teams to play with interesting riders and for expert team to increase one dedicated skill at 20 for 1 or 2 year and have rider back. No transfer prize but wage for the team who is training. Loaning could be interesting to increasing manager relations.
This was my old view and I kown, without considering engine problems.Just an idea to share late. If anyone is interested could be implemented.
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Nelzinho
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 13
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Post by Nelzinho on Apr 29, 2020 8:24:09 GMT 1
2. Does a restart also mean losing your money? 2- Yes all teams will start with only 300k
I build up a stack with more than 5 mil € on the bank right now. Even considering all the options in this poll, it would be very unfair to also take our money. This money is created over years of gameplay by doing transfers wisely, invested in a youth scout and no extreme amounts of transfermoney been paid. This 5 mil € in the bank is my future in the game, rather than the new training system being implemented.
Im definitely open to other suggestions, but all solutions that are now on the table are really not acceptable for me. As for now the best option for me is having no change at all. Let us have the courage to add to the poll: no change.
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Post by angelogik on Apr 29, 2020 8:37:09 GMT 1
I don't usually write on the forum but I think the option to add 10 more cyclists to the rooster with the application of the new training system is acceptable, if you increase the number of cyclists who can train to maximum to 28 or 30 (100 %) it would be better according to my thought, I do not like restarting now, I proposed it a couple of years ago but it was not taken into consideration, now it is too late, too much time has gone by for the team to evolve pardon my bad english, hi
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Post by pollyjean on Apr 29, 2020 8:49:36 GMT 1
Wikipedia page can be rewritten. Not enough useful information. Agree. Many people probably want to help with that. Update of the wiki and putting the information on the forum in a logical way.
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Post by JOOP Cycling Team on Apr 29, 2020 9:40:32 GMT 1
2- Yes all teams will start with only 300k
I build up a stack with more than 5 mil € on the bank right now. Even considering all the options in this poll, it would be very unfair to also take our money. This money is created over years of gameplay by doing transfers wisely, invested in a youth scout and no extreme amounts of transfermoney been paid. This 5 mil € in the bank is my future in the game, rather than the new training system being implemented.
Im definitely open to other suggestions, but all solutions that are now on the table are really not acceptable for me. As for now the best option for me is having no change at all. Let us have the courage to add to the poll: no change.
Very understandable I have put millions into a talent group of 28 years. Hammers, Lathouwer, Schade , Christmann ect.. . Recently acquired a Castro .. Each gives me at least 5 million. My capital is in the group of riders who are arriving soon. My future is also under 28 years old, expensive training, which I put in return. We have to make the best of it.
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Post by danpark on Apr 29, 2020 9:41:59 GMT 1
First of all, thank you, because this is a big and imho needed change in the game! Then, my two cents: First, quoting eboese: And I know why people are voting for it, but I personally don't see anything in a full restart. I've spend way too much of time on my current team to see it fully disappear. I'm not sure if I could find the motivation to fully restart (again). But the poll result is already telling us so, I think.
Second: 26 yo seems a bit early to reach potential and start losing skill, it seems even a bit unrealistic to me. Maybe 30 yo?
Or, if it is possible, a variable age starting from 28-30 (some riders lose skills earlier, and some later).
Third: (ok, I know, I said two...) I'm not sure if I like the idea of adding ten 18-19yo riders, I would prefer the possibility to add 18-25 yo riders with random skills but scaled with age, so you can get some rider that can actually compete, not only youngsters. If you have a young team you can just sell them, if you don't need them.
I don't like the solution, as someone suggested, to increase training slots.
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Post by bam on Apr 29, 2020 12:33:12 GMT 1
First of all, I also want to say that you guys do a really good job with the game, and that changing the training system can indeed improve the game in my view. And I also think that it’s good that you discuss this with the players, because it’s such a drastic change. But, like some others, I’ve got my doubts about the proposals. When we give everyone 10 new riders, we will again have one very large generation. It will take 8 seasons for them to reach their top level, and even another 10 to actually get rid of some of them. So only after 18 seasons, we would reach the state of the game where we are now, namely that the start-up effects have vanished and new players do really have a fair chance to get up. Besides that, 26 years seems quite young to me, which indeed means that we get a large amount of riders at or near their top. That’s nice on one hand, but I think it also prevents less experienced players from reaching division 1, since there will usually be teams with better riders around. Furthermore, by the double training speed at young age, we also make it nearly impossible for 20 year olds to compete in U21 races, as it will be the difference between 23 and 25 year olds compared to now. And for youth pulls, the difference between a week 1 and week 5 pull means already 2 points below 7, which is really too much in my view. So, I’m sorry to be annoying, but I would like to make another proposal (that I already had thought of during a previous discussion), complete with transition idea (that only came up today). In short, I would both adapt training speed and retirements, such that riders retire with at maximum 34. When we are changing something, I think it’s best to change the whole package to something more realistic. I’ve put a table below, this text just serves as description and explanation. To solve the U21 competition problem, I would keep training speed the same till 21. This old speed I will call speed 1 (basically a factor compared till now, where I assume current speed between 18 and 34 constant). Then, from the age of 22 upto and including 26, speed is doubled. Also in real life I think the largest progression can be seen at these ages. At 27 speed returns to 1 again, going to 0.5 at 28 and lowering to about 0.2 (or actually this is meant as the current speed at 35) at 29. The current decrease at 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40 are then placed at 30 until 34. In total we get about 1.5 season less training compared to now. I think this is quite nice, as this gives some more differences between riders, but still allows for a rather complete training. By the end of their 26, riders will be more or less competitive, with the difference being equal to the current difference between end-of-season 31 year olds and near-end-of-season 33 year olds compared to now. Retirements start at (end of) 31 and finish at 34 years (that is, no 35 year olds anymore).
Age | Speed (factor to current) | Total seasons of training after age | retirement after season |
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18 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 19 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 20 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 21 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 22 | 2 | 6 | 0 | 23 | 2 | 8 | 0 | 24 | 2 | 10 | 0 | 25 | 2 | 12 | 0 | 26 | 2 | 14 | 0 | 27 | 1 | 15 | 0 | 28 | 0.5 | 15.5 | 0 | 29 | 0.2 | 15.7 | 0 | 30 | -0.5 | 15.2 | 0 | 31 | -1 | 14.2 | 0.2 | 32 | -1.5 | 12.7 | 0.4 | 33 | -2 | 10.7 | 0.75 | 34 | -2.5 | 8.2 | 1 |
And then the conversion from old to new system. Since it is very hard to compensate the skills of riders to missed trainings, I was thinking of correcting the age to the training they had. For most ages this is quite straightforward, but some ages are “above the table”, having received more training than possible in the new system. Those riders can however be put to such an age that they decrease somewhat faster, and they get their chance to shine (which they missed currently). The older riders need some quicker retirement, but that could have happened by bad luck anyway. The main problem exists with riders of 22, 24, 26, 28 and 30, as their “trainings history” doesn’t exist in the new system (at least not as full age). For those riders, I suggest we ignore the last season of training they had to level them with 1 year younger riders. We need to keep a copy of the database at the start of the season to do so, but I guess this is doable and, quite important, it can run automatically. See the table below for the conversion of age. Age (end of season) | New age (end of season) | Additional change |
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18 | 18 |
| 19 | 19 |
| 20 | 20 |
| 21 | 21 |
| 22 | 21 | subtract 1 season of training | 23 | 22 |
| 24 | 22 | subtract 1 season of training | 25 | 23 |
| 26 | 23 | subtract 1 season of training | 27 | 24 |
| 28 | 24 | subtract 1 season of training | 29 | 25 |
| 30 | 25 | subtract 1 season of training | 31 | 26 |
| 32 | 27 |
| 33 | 29 |
| 34 | 30 |
| 35 | 35 | 50% retirement? 100% retirement? | 36 | 36 | 100% retirement | 37 | 37 | 100% retirement | 38 | 38 | 100% retirement | 39 | 39 | 100% retirement |
Some advantages: - No completely wasted generations - Little start-up time to “stable situation” - More realistic careers
Some disadvantages: - Difficulties with the conversion at 22, 24, 26, 28 and 30 years - Some riders suddenly can’t train anymore - Less trainable years, so we also should adjust the amount of training spots (to 17 or 18 to keep it comparable to the current situation)
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Post by zenekkonevka on Apr 29, 2020 12:48:51 GMT 1
I can't vote but I'm for option 1
or can be option 2
3 i 4 are very stupid
3. Total restart after years in game is a nice invatation to stop playing
4. What for do I need 10 new cyclicts ? I have 28, only 25 can be trained, what can I do with 40 cyclicts ? When someone need a new cyclict can simply use a scout and get a few youngsters.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Apr 29, 2020 13:01:38 GMT 1
Thanks for the discussion so far, that is what we need, but it also shows how difficult it is.
Just a small history about the current situation: A few years ago we were suddenly confronted with the fact that the website was offline. IP, the developer of the game, had a busy career, lost interest in the game and payed years for it, for the provider etc. of his own money. He stopped doing that and when the provider doesn't get any money, they kill the website. Within 1 day, El Gringo, Schizm and I (without that the 3 of us know each other or ever met each other) decided to jump in and continue the game. Not because we had a thorough plan or that we had time to think it over, no only out of love for the game. I am lucky that I have a good job and I could afford the money (which is actually quit high), El Gringo was going to maintain the database and solve some problems and Schiza has an IT related job, knew IP and was already little into the game.
What the three of us lack, and what is most important, is programming skills. We tried to find a programmer, but when you have nothing to spend (and I have never had the intention in making this an investment and make profit out of it) nobody wants to do anything. So step by step Schizm learned something about the way it's programmed.
In the meantime we lost a lot of managers. Almost the entire Italian community quitted. ALso a few loyal Romanian players left the game and the original > 1000 are now reduced till > 150 of which probaly 50 aren't even active players.
These managers left for different reasons, but most of these reasons has to do with game related issues. Youthscout, riders only competitive in their 30s, mood, game money etc. The quitting of Slayer, a very motivated player who was willing to spend private time in the game to help, was a big blow for me and made me think.
We have tried to ask you guys for yelp and you were all willing. First EGV and after that BAM organised the youth league, other managers promoted the game or became moderator or just gave us your honest opinion and some criticism.
And we are thankfull for that because that helps, even the criticism. The players who are now left are all die hard players who do their best to keep the game alive. You are almost all premium players. By far not enough to cover the costs, but I am gratefull and raising premium money was never an option for me.
But after the 3 of us "own" the game for a few years, we are still on the same level. And if we are honest, we will be in 5 years if we don't do anything. In the mean time I have children who are going to study in August. Unfortunately in Holland, students don't get any money for that and need to pay for themselves, which means me.
That is costing a lot of money and that is why I need to cut costs. I have just paid for all costs until May 2021, but I want to see things changing. Schizm is losing motivation, he spend a lot of time in learning the game and finds out that small differences have big consequences, El Gringo spends lots of free time in the games, is always willing to help and compensate managers and it is costing me a lot of money. The other two get back frustration, I just play a (for me) expensive game.
Luckily El Gringo find a programmer who wants to learn this code, so today I am giving him acces to the code to learn and we will consult what changes to be made, if he knows how to do it. Of course we have a list of bugs we want to solve, but that doesn't change the game and doesn't bring us back managers, or stop new playing managers to leave the game after a few season.
So changes need to be made in order to grow the game. If the game doesn't grow, this will be the last year that I am going to pay for it. If somebody else wants to do it, I hereby invite this person or persons to tell me.
So we need a solution to cover the costs. If the game grows, premium money will cover most of the costs and if it is only 1 or 200 euros, I don't mind paying.
Now back to the changes: One of the things we heard a lot that it costs way to much time to be competitive in division 1. I did it once myself, sold all riders after winning division 1 and it took me 11 seasons, which is almost 4 years!! to be competitive again in division 1.
Riders have a function until 21, then from 21 till 25 you only have the youngster jersey in tours, which isn't even an official jersey (one thing that is very hard to change in the code). And from 26 till 29, you can use tham as helpers. There are some more issues why managers wuit that needs to be solved, but let's stay on this one.
Changing this has huge influence on the game, strategy, time for managers already invested in their team etc. The fact that there are so many diffrent opinions show how difficult this is.
And to us you are all valued players and we don't want you to quit and we do understand frustration.
So here is my message to you:
How do you think we can get managers back to stay? How can we increase to 500 managers again and keep most of them happy? How can we keep you guys happy and continue playing? Think about that, and come with well thought plans, not just shouting an idea. We are open for every sustantive discussion.
This game is (although it is a fun game) ill and we need to find the cure fast.
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Post by wheelnut on Apr 29, 2020 13:04:03 GMT 1
I believe none of the poll options are that palatable. I propose increasing training speed yes but as riders get older there training speed drops right off until 23 -26 year old riders really slow training. This way riders have a career from 23 to 35 until retirement. Skills drop from 33 NOT at 26!
Do this gradually, no big bang. for example first season training speeds drop after 30, then 2nd season after 27 etc...by season 4 fully implement the above.
There are other things broken in the game that need fixing in my view... Youth scouts way to expensive and ineffective, massive difference between level 3 and level 2, the winner takes all economic model does not work!
A restart you will lose too many players, adding ten riders seems like a too much of a big bang.
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Post by davidandre on Apr 29, 2020 17:16:07 GMT 1
I have played peloton for quite a few years now. Became a little inactive now and then and after a few seasons of saving money started again this season in 5th division. Last time I played it took me (i think) only five seasons to promote from 5th division to 1st division by playing an aggressive game. This time i was planning to play a bit slower game to reach a team that could play in top for a longer time.
Most given options would not be beneficial for my team and my strategy. But honestly, I DONT CARE. If one of these changes is what this game need according to the Peloton Team, change is what we should be in for. So in my opinion every player should stop thinking about the disadvantages and only answer the poll. What change of the four options do you think is the best for the game.
I am not saying you can never give feedback of can not have any kind of critism. But i think we can all agree we will never all be in agree (pun intended) of any option moving forward. So in my opinion every player should choose one of the given options you think is best for the game. And yes, that could mean you are voting for an option that is not most suitable for your own gameplay.
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