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Post by Schizm on Jan 6, 2020 23:31:20 GMT 1
While I agree that someone who pulls more 18 year olds is more lucky, I dont agree your ranking is better because there the ones who pulls 5 18yo and 4 times nothing are considered more lucky then someone who pulls 5 18yo and 4 19yo. Your percentages do not take the "no cyclist found" into account too. Much better is to sort them on 18yo and then total pulls (and I even added perception this time , lowest first)
Team YS-pulls 18yo Perception Panteras Negras 8 7 15 RS Cycling 8 6 15 Gonzalez 9 5 15 Op kop de sloot in 9 5 15 Polhill Racing CC 8 5 16 Lowart 6 5 17 DeZweters 5 5 13 bolzonis 5 5 14 joachim1107 6 4 14 Headcase Pro Cycling 6 4 15 BeterLaatDanNooit 6 4 15 GIK team 6 4 15 SeMTeX 6 4 17 team dustin 5 4 12 Carapaz 4 4 12 J.M. Jiménez 9 3 20 Melres United 8 3 16 Berdios Pro Cycling 6 3 15 Freistadt Fury 6 3 19 SAECO 5 3 11 De Kasseienstoempers 8 2 L.EMA 7 2 15 Quiller Boys 7 2 15 Schizmano Development 6 2 15 Pedale Bolognese 5 2 15 Het sniperteam 3.0 4 2 11 RVelo 3 2 10 Shizintastic 3 2 11 TGV 3 2 Pollo ciclismo team 2 2 13 Tossboom 6 1 15 Bear 5 1 7 Thors Thunder 5 1 13 The Mothers of Invention 4 1 15 Caisse D'Epargne 2 1 10 P.S. : If I remember correctly Perception 20 is not completely equal to 100% chance (I seem to remember it is 97,5% but I could be wrong ... )
edit : since there is no data of unsuccesfull atempts, we have to assume that everyone searched 9
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Post by tiagoiowa on Jan 6, 2020 23:49:10 GMT 1
While I agree that someone who pulls more 18 year olds is more lucky, I dont agree your ranking is better because there the ones who pulls 5 18yo and 4 times nothing are considered more lucky then someone who pulls 5 18yo and 4 19yo. Your percentages do not take the "no cyclist found" into account too. Much better is to sort them on 18yo and then total pulls (and I even added perception this time , lowest first) Team YS-pulls 18yo Perception
Panteras Negras 8 7 15 RS Cycling 8 6 15 Gonzalez 9 5 15 Op kop de sloot in 9 5 15 Polhill Racing CC 8 5 16 Lowart 6 5 17 DeZweters 5 5 13 bolzonis 5 5 14 joachim1107 6 4 14 Headcase Pro Cycling 6 4 15 BeterLaatDanNooit 6 4 15 GIK team 6 4 15 SeMTeX 6 4 17 team dustin 5 4 12 Carapaz 4 4 12 J.M. Jiménez 9 3 20 Melres United 8 3 16 Berdios Pro Cycling 6 3 15 Freistadt Fury 6 3 19 SAECO 5 3 11 De Kasseienstoempers 8 2 L.EMA 7 2 15 Quiller Boys 7 2 15 Schizmano Development 6 2 15 Pedale Bolognese 5 2 15 Het sniperteam 3.0 4 2 11 RVelo 3 2 10 Shizintastic 3 2 11 TGV 3 2 Pollo ciclismo team 2 2 13 Tossboom 6 1 15 Bear 5 1 7 Thors Thunder 5 1 13 The Mothers of Invention 4 1 15 Caisse D'Epargne 2 1 10 P.S. : If I remember correctly Perception 20 is not completely equal to 100% chance (I seem to remember it is a 97,5% chance) edit : since there is no data of unsuccesfull atempts, we have to assume that everyone searched 9 The scout in my opinion is lucky I usually take between 5/6 per season, but this season I'm taking too many out of 9 I took 7 out of 18 1 out of 19 and a week didn't come out, this is random it's a lucky thing
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Post by bam on Jan 7, 2020 7:48:00 GMT 1
While I agree that someone who pulls more 18 year olds is more lucky, I dont agree your ranking is better because there the ones who pulls 5 18yo and 4 times nothing are considered more lucky then someone who pulls 5 18yo and 4 19yo. Your percentages do not take the "no cyclist found" into account too. Much better is to sort them on 18yo and then total pulls (and I even added perception this time , lowest first) edit : since there is no data of unsuccesfull atempts, we have to assume that everyone searched 9 I agree that in your example the second one is not particularly unlucky, but I think it are 2 different kinds of luck. I tried to explain that in my previous post as well, but that was appearantly not clear
The first one is the "luck" in finding a cyclist. That should be compared to the chance on a cyclist to say something about actual luck I think, because someone finding 9 cyclists with a 15 perception scout is more lucky than someone finding 9 cyclists with a 20 perception scout. But that data is not available unfortunately, so therefore I neglected it entirely.
The second form of luck is the number of 18 year olds compared to the number of pulls. Perception has nothing to do with this anymore, and neither with the number of attempts. For any team you would expect 50% of the pulls to be 18. So that's what my ranking was about.
But well, this is just my view. Besides these forms there is of course also a lot of luck involved in the timing of the 18 year old pulls, the secondaries, the skills compared to length/weight, injury proneness and FA's. But in the end I don't think a youth scout is (or should be) financially attractive, I just see it as a nice addition to the game. And you are in first choice with the 18 year olds that you get, that's also worth some money.
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Post by bam on Jan 7, 2020 7:49:41 GMT 1
P.S. : If I remember correctly Perception 20 is not completely equal to 100% chance (I seem to remember it is 97,5% but I could be wrong ... ) According to the (English) wiki the exception is only on the 0 side (=2.5% chance), and not on the 20 side. Would make sense in my opinion as well, otherwise you pay way too much for that last 2.5% (even for 5% it's rather expensive I think).
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Post by Schizm on Jan 7, 2020 8:53:36 GMT 1
P.S. : If I remember correctly Perception 20 is not completely equal to 100% chance (I seem to remember it is 97,5% but I could be wrong ... ) According to the (English) wiki the exception is only on the 0 side (=2.5% chance), and not on the 20 side. Would make sense in my opinion as well, otherwise you pay way too much for that last 2.5% (even for 5% it's rather expensive I think). I looked it up in the code, the succesrate for a 20 perception scout is 99,5% (the 2,5% chance for a zero scout is (almost) correct) The wiki shows the easiest route to explain saying it is 5% per skillpoint, but in fact perception 2 isn't 10% but 9.95 and perception 15 gives a 74.63% chance instead of a 75%. So maybe the word "almost" can be added in the explanation on the wiki.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Jan 7, 2020 9:50:35 GMT 1
Yes, I saw that there are even guys with a lower percentage than me. And 3 100% is unbelievable lucky.
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Post by bosko on Jan 7, 2020 12:01:03 GMT 1
I agree with what Poekie said before: if pulled 19y and 20y olds wouldn't suck that much, all the previous posts wouldn't be there. Ok, one might still prefer a 18y old, because you can choose yourself wich skill to train. But a 20y old with a decent amount of skills could immediately be used in a race and therefore wouldn't be as useless as he is now. I don't know if it's that complicated to change the total skill sum that is used to divide over the different skills when a cyclist is created? Schizm, is there a way you could share only the part of the code regarding this subject with me, so I could take a look? Also some points I don't really know if it's really necessary: - Why complicated formulas are used so you get for example 74.63% chance instead of 75%? - Wouldn't it be more clear if pulled cyclists have no decimals (all skills are x.0)? Making some things less complicated/hidden might make the game a bit more clear for the average player?
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Post by Schizm on Jan 7, 2020 17:34:42 GMT 1
By the time I have looked up all the necesseary information in the code , I would have coded it myself. The question is not so much HOW , but IF it should be changed. Peloton has a long history and every development has up / down sides which almost always are unfair to atleast a part of the users. f.i. - If I change the skilldistribution for 19 year olds , that would be unfair to people who recently fired their scout !
Same thing for the mood problem, weg calculations, the ultra-multi-skilled trainers, ... (I can go on and on ...)
Your point about the complicated formulas : - I don't think the perception is overly complicated : (10 x Perception)/201 (except if perception is zero). And I like the fact there is still a very small chance for a zero return. - about the decimals, I also disagree there is no fun in having everything fixed numbers , a game without a luck factor (and pleasent (or displeasant) surprises is BORING.
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Post by bosko on Jan 8, 2020 9:12:12 GMT 1
By the time I have looked up all the necesseary information in the code , I would have coded it myself. I'm sorry. Because of earlier posts, I thought the only reason to not make small codechanges was lack of time. I understand that for small changes, it's not timesaving to let someone else do it. The question is not so much HOW , but IF it should be changed. Peloton has a long history and every development has up / down sides which almost always are unfair to atleast a part of the users. f.i. - If I change the skilldistribution for 19 year olds , that would be unfair to people who recently fired their scout ! So making a small change to improve the game because now: - only about 1 out of 4 managers uses it - new players are even recommended to certainly NOT use it - the few managers who use it, aren't happy about it and are discussing about who is the most unlucky shouldn't be changed because someone fired a youthscout recently? Isn't the longterm plan of the game a bit more important? A compensation can be found for those few managers (for example: when the youthscoutcode has improved, everyone who fired one within the last x weeks, can have the option of getting him back or something like that)? Same thing for the mood problem, weg calculations, the ultra-multi-skilled trainers, ... (I can go on and on ...) I'm aware of that. For the youthscout however, I think the downside is limited. Your point about the complicated formulas : - I don't think the perception is overly complicated : (10 x Perception)/201 (except if perception is zero). And I like the fact there is still a very small chance for a zero return. Ok, but when the Wikipage literally says: "The chance your scout finds a suitable cyclist depends entirely on the Perception skill. For every point in this skill, the chance will increase with 5%. So with a Perception of 10, you have exactly 50% chance of finding a cyclist. A Perception of 20 will make it 100%." and than in a certain forum post (which not every manager reads), suddenly slight other numbers appear, than that makes it look like the game is made more complicated than necessary. - about the decimals, I also disagree there is no fun in having everything fixed numbers , a game without a luck factor (and pleasent (or displeasant) surprises is BORING. Only changing the fact that you don't have decimals at a pull, doesn't whipe out the luck factor. The luck factor can still be there: - instead of starting with a fixed pool of 120 points to divide, start with a random generated number between for example 110 and 130. - you can be lucky the skills match the weight/length of the cyclist - you can be lucky the skills match your current trainer My idea for only working with whole numbers (so divide 12 skills instead of 120 and than divide by 10) and keeping the game a bit less complex was in the first place to keep it clear for new / recently started managers. After all, one of the goals of this game should be to get more active managers and therefore try to eliminate things that might make a manager quit the game within his first season (and too much complexity might cause that). Now I'm reading the wikipage of the youthscout, another "strange thing" catches my eye: "The maximum value of a skill during the distribution of the skill pool points is limited to 4. If the Perception of the scout is higher than 0, the maximum is increased to 5."What's the use of that? 1) It doesn't seem logic that perception has to do anything with the maximum skill. Current ability is used for that? 2) Why would anyone have a youthscout with perception 0? So why not turn: 4 (maximum skill value) + 1 (if Perception > 0) + 2 (if Current Ability is 20)into 5 (maximum skill value) + 2 (if Current Ability is 20)Again, a little less complex and nothing really would change for anyone. That being said, you could start by changing only 1 thing: "The cyclist's 6 main skills are determined by using a 'skill pool'. This pool contains 120 points that are distributed randomly over the 6 skills." I would change that as follows: Add 1 point per week in the season (so a 18y old pulled at the beginning of the season starts with 120 points, an 18y old after week 10 starts with 130 points to divide etc). As normally a season has 16 + 1 weeks, I would set the pool of a 19y old at 137 points at the beginning of a season. And why not make it possible to pull a 20y old at 154 points at the beginning of a season. Still, an 18y old pull would be preferable, because by training, you get more profit than only 0.1 skill per update, but at least: - the difference between an 18y old pull at the beginning or at the end of a season would be smaller - the difference between an 18y old pull and a 19y old pull would be smaller
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Post by Schizm on Jan 8, 2020 10:06:39 GMT 1
That being said, you could start by changing only 1 thing: "The cyclist's 6 main skills are determined by using a 'skill pool'. This pool contains 120 points that are distributed randomly over the 6 skills." I would change that as follows: Add 1 point per week in the season (so a 18y old pulled at the beginning of the season starts with 120 points, an 18y old after week 10 starts with 130 points to divide etc). As normally a season has 16 + 1 weeks, I would set the pool of a 19y old at 137 points at the beginning of a season. And why not make it possible to pull a 20y old at 154 points at the beginning of a season. Still, an 18y old pull would be preferable, because by training, you get more profit than only 0.1 skill per update, but at least: - the difference between an 18y old pull at the beginning or at the end of a season would be smaller - the difference between an 18y old pull and a 19y old pull would be smaller This is more or less how I planned to change the startskill (I was even thinking of 0.2 / week (for 19 year olds)), but the downside of this (and the no-decimals suggestion) is that we will have a more even playfield (I mean by lowering the chance for a cyclist not suited for the job, you also decrease the chance for cyclists to stand out of the others) The part about the perception used as extra on current ability also bothered me since the introduction (in v2), but I always think it is unfair to take those things away (but hey maybe I am overthinking this kind of stuff to much)
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Post by Poekie on Jan 8, 2020 12:25:27 GMT 1
By the way, imo the extra points for new riders over 18 is even more important for new teams (it is strange that part of the job of a new manager is to dump most of their team). 0.2/week is too much I think, the riders should not be competitive for the first three divisions, but fine for divsion 4 and 5.
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Post by ElGringo on Jan 8, 2020 13:04:50 GMT 1
By the way, imo the extra points for new riders over 18 is even more important for new teams (it is strange that part of the job of a new manager is to dump most of their team). 0.2/week is too much I think, the riders should not be competitive for the first three divisions, but fine for divsion 4 and 5. You made a good point here, because the majority of the starting teams for new users are useless, they only have 18y to make some money and have to build a new team because the other riders don't have skills to do something. Watching last post seems we are in a good way, and if Schizm have time to apply it I think that we all agree on that changes even during the current season.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 15:18:17 GMT 1
In my opinion, the youthscout is the worst feature in this game, and i like to play with one in this type of games.
But in this game is very frustrating and it is a long way from compensating the financial investment in terms of sporting results.
Short form solution, my opinion is, the youth scout should find less cyclists by season but with much better primary and secondary skills.
P.S: Probably I will buy one next week, because is more fun for me play that way, not because i think is better for my game results.
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Post by Mike on Apr 13, 2020 21:22:58 GMT 1
From now on new teams only get 18 and 19 year old cyclists on their roster, 19 year olds will also have a larger skillpool then their younger colleagues (meaning they will have a higher total skill).
Cyclists from youthscout will also gain the same extra skillpoints when aged 19.
Maybe add these skill's for all pulled youth from this season? That way it was a change from beginning of the season. I have dismissed my youthscout last week. If I had known about this change I might not have done that!
PS one should not bring in drastic changes in this game without a warning well ahead !!!
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Post by Ab Normaal on Apr 13, 2020 21:46:37 GMT 1
I have dismissed my youthscout last week. If I had known about this change I might not have done that! PS one should not bring in drastic changes in this game without a warning well ahead !!! I have ditched my scout at the end of last season. These things happen. If we have to tell changes long enough in front we can never proceed with the game. Sometimes when we have found something out we implement it. It isn’t a game changer, it is not that it changes this game significantly. So we apologize if it is bad timing for a few of you, but it is something we wanted to change already for a long time.
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