Advanced newbie questions

[vdgg]

Hi,

I called this advanced newbie questions, consider yourself if they are really advanced in any way

I would like to learn more about a game and its funcionality, so I wrote down few questions, hopefully not too stupid ones

Helpers
Pace of the peloton is based on 10 best helpers not including riders from teams in attacks, right? This principal with the 10 best helpers applies to all groups or only to the peloton?
Helpers are helping to get back to the peloton only to riders that are set up as attackers or to all riders excluding other helpers?
When helpers are taking care of the peloton pace, are they taking care of their teammates to stay in the peloton at the same time? Or is their priority to catch the attack even when they will lose an attacker from their team from peloton during this effort?

Attacks
How exactly the skill sprint works here? When two riders have the same skills except sprint, will the rider with better sprint automatically go ahead the other one?
If I understand it correctly, skill time trial determinates how long a rider will last in an attack, right? So when this rider during his attack attacks for the second time, does it still count as one attack or this influence of time trial starts from the beginning?

Contracts
I saw somewhere an explanation of probabilities of retirement in each age for riders 35+ I guess, but I cant find it. Can someone write it down please?
Are there any best practices for contracts negotiations?

Training
What should be an average time for a 25 years old rider to get from 7 to 8, when his coach has ability 15 for that particular skill?
What is the maximum for one skill?

Thanks a lot

[dustin]

good questions,

I can help a bit, but I think, I do not know enough.
I think others will give you good information.
Otherwise I will give it a try.

[Schizm]

good questions ? But even I can't answer one of them completely and with certainty (without consulting the code).


Training : 0.2/gain per week is considered as a good FA, and 0.15 as decent (or average) but the real average is in fact just below the 0.1 per week I think. If he gets older (app 30 - 34) it might take an extra week (or two). Don't know the maximum number of weeks but consider this as infinitive (100 weeks or more, ypu have to take the aging into account to). The minimum is 4 weeks but that often also depends on the decimals after the pop to 7 and I doubt it can be done by a 15 trainer.

(No time for the other questions right now, maybe someone else can have a try, or I will come back to them later)

[Poekie]

To the best of my knowlegde (and partly just guessing):

* Helpers will primarily take care of teammates. They will speed up the peloton if there are no teammates
attacking.

* Sprint gives a bonus at the start of an attack (only works when the rider is in a group). TT gives a bonus (added to the primary skill) during an attack.

* There is a best practice for contracts, but only one person seems to know about it. The rest of us is just trying to work it out by trial and error.... in general, a high mood is very benificial during races, but very bad during contract renewals. Refusing the wishes of a rider brings down both their mood and their salary demands. If the rider scored a decent amount of points during the season (or the previous one) you can give them contract extras.
Rule of thumb: salary = tv/100

[guaro]

UP

[naspa]

Good questions.
I assume that if there are less than 10 helpers set or left, the pace will be based on the average of the total set of helpers. It is an interesting thought anyway that one might slow down the pace of the peloton by selecting bad helpers.

With a set attack-point the sprint skills kick in. To my opinion every time you set an attack point -valid for a race part after the attack point - to my opinion you gain more by setting an attack point at a 10km part than at a 5km part - terrain being the same! The remark of Poekie that this is only when being part of a group, I am not so sure about. (Of course it is true that you will not see an "escape" in the text generated.) And of course, being in the right attack group might  be more important than just selecting the optimizing the effects of the sprint skills.

To my opinion the TT skill in normal races just sort of adds up to the relevant other skills when determining the group pace - even with helpers or a sole attacker.

Contract negotiations are best done with patience. A few breakdowns in negotiation rounds cannot be bad. One of the options is to insult the rider so much you get the chance to buy off the current contract and renew a contract based on normal market conditions. But if you are really patient and carefull you can get better results without spoiling his mood too much.

From 7-8 depends a bit on the skill, FA and age of the rider concerned. Average for a 25 trained with a trainer skilled 15, I guess would be something like 6 maybe 7 weeks. With a good FA it can be faster. Good practice is to look at the increase of the value of a rider.
You will note is not a lineair process, you need at least two weeks to make a good estimantion, but on average -in between 7 and 8- you are looking for values higher than 5k increases there. I guess more than 7k is promising.

With a perfect FA it seems one can reach the max of 20 skill points. Average would result in a max of 15 as I understand.

Chances that your old riders will retire.
On his 36th birthday => 1/16 chance to retire
On his 37th birthday => 2/16 chance to retire
On his 38th birthday => 4/16 chance to retire
On his 39th birthday => 8/16 chance to retire
On his 40th birthday => 16/16 chance to retire

@others. Please correct and complement.

[JoeLag]

Sept 9, 2018 6:55:00 GMT 1 naspa said:

... Good practice is to look at the increase of the value of a rider.
You will note is not a lineair process, you need at least two weeks to make a good estimantion, but on average -in between 7 and 8- you are looking for values higher than 5k increases there. I guess more than 7k is promising.

I wouldn't agree to that about the transfer value increase. In my opinion the calculation of the TV is not linear at all. I guess it was Schism who once pointed out that the TV does a jump every time you reach a complete tenth of a decimal. So it could be something like (suppose we're talking of cyclists with identical skills apart from the one you are actually training):

7.11 -> 7.19 -> TV + 1000
7.13 -> 7.21 -> TV + 7000
7.13 -> 7.25 -> TV + 7500
7.19 -> 7.31 -> TV + 14000
7.13 -> 7.35 -> TV + 14500
7.19 -> 7.41 -> TV + 21000

[naspa]

JoeLag. To my opinion/experience the training it self is subject to some randomness - so never judge on one.
The calculation of the transfer value is for sure an exponential polynome - I think there is no influence of chance there.
If that is what you say, I agree.
The precise estimation of the skills you present here make me wonder. How would you do that? To my opinion even estimating one decimal is tricky and subjective business.
Is it an example how you think the claculation behaves or you cracked some code?
There two ways known to me to say something about the actual skills.
Compare them in the cyclist summary rankings or - and this is why I think the transfervalues are a good indication anyhow- looking at the TV-increase.

[Schizm]

Sept 9, 2018 10:08:57 GMT 1 JoeLag said:

Sept 9, 2018 6:55:00 GMT 1 naspa said:

... Good practice is to look at the increase of the value of a rider.
You will note is not a lineair process, you need at least two weeks to make a good estimantion, but on average -in between 7 and 8- you are looking for values higher than 5k increases there. I guess more than 7k is promising.

I wouldn't agree to that about the transfer value increase. In my opinion the calculation of the TV is not linear at all. I guess it was Schism who once pointed out that the TV does a jump every time you reach a complete tenth of a decimal. So it could be something like (suppose we're talking of cyclists with identical skills apart from the one you are actually training):

7.11 -> 7.19 -> TV + 1000
7.13 -> 7.21 -> TV + 7000
7.13 -> 7.25 -> TV + 7500
7.19 -> 7.31 -> TV + 14000
7.13 -> 7.35 -> TV + 14500
7.19 -> 7.41 -> TV + 21000

The part of the jump at every tenth of a skillpoint is correct, in fact when the rise of skill is less then a 0.1 skillpoint only the random part is different in the transfervalue. Which means that the transfervalue can drop while the skill improves (less then 0.1 skillpoints).

I reworked your examples, the amounts are rough estimates (not taken from the code)

7.11 -> 7.19 -> TV + or - 0 to 2500
7.18 -> 7.19 -> TV + or - 0 to 2500
7.19 -> 7.20 -> TV + 4 to 6000
7.13 -> 7.21 -> TV + 4 to 6000
7.13 -> 7.25 -> TV + 4 to 6000
7.19 -> 7.31 -> TV + 7,5 to 10000
7.13 -> 7.35 -> TV + 7,5 to 10000
7.19 -> 7.41 -> TV + 21000

Sept 9, 2018 6:55:00 GMT 1 naspa said:

With a perfect FA it seems one can reach the max of 20 skill points. Average would result in a max of 15 as I understand.

That is incorrect, although it is true that reaching 20 or even 15 with a low FA is impossible (because it would take to many weeks), it isnt impossible with what you call an average FA.

What you call a average FA (a 7 week skillpop) is in fact a 15 on 20 (an that is even presuming a good trainer*)
The mathematical average is a 10 FA and then it is fair to assume you need 10 weeks or more for a skillpop.

*a good trainer has a skill above 15, but if you want to develop real world class riders you should try to keep the skill as high as possible, (considering a skill below 18 is kind of a waste)

[pollyjean]

I'm curious if the changes around fitness training (bigger chance on injuries and larger skill decrease) are already in effect? Any examples or proof? thx

[Schizm]

No Proof for the injury prone , the sample is just to small. For the skill decrease these are five 38 year olds of which I compared the total skill early april to now :

Lamego -6.16
Chitul -4.68
Guiggi -4.65
Feron -4.14
Malton -3.99

I calculated the expected skill loss to be -4.68, so
- Lamego trains fitness regulary,
- Chitul is on the normal schedule,
- Guiggi trained skill one or two (maybe three ?) times in my team
- Malton probably trains skill all the time

edit : another reason why skill decrease can be less then expected is when some skills are already at zero,
Because of this I am planning to make a change to the skill loss at training :
- For fitness trainers the choice of skill will no longer be random but the highest skill
- the weekly decrease will change to proportional instead of equally divided (high skills lose more then low dkills)

[bosko]

I'm kinda dissapointed viewing those numbers.

As Lamego is in my division, I keep an eye on him.
He uses training fitness almost every week to score as many points as possible.
Using your numbers, he loses only 1.48 skill points for training fitness possibly more than 20 times, so thats about -0.075 skill point per training. So if you use training fitness every week (16 times), your cyclist loses about 1.2 skill points in a season. That can be 0.2 on every skill, so hardly any loss.
Also you explained already (couldn't find the exact post right now) that the extra injury risk depends on the injury proneness of the cyclist. So a cyclist with an already low injury proneness doesn't get much more chance for injury.
So for now, training fitness hardly has a downside.

The game announcement back than only mentioned:
- Cyclists who train fitness have a higher chance on injuries
- Cyclists decrease in a random skill when trained fitness
In my head, that ment:
1 fitnesstraining =
* for example 20 % chance on injury
* for example -0.2 skill points
So I immediately untrained my trainer.

However, I'm happy to read the "edit" part.
The changes you mention planning to do seem a step in the good direction!

[eboese]

Sept 10, 2018 9:43:34 GMT 1 Schizm said:

- Malton probably trains skill all the time

Yep, I can confirm that.