Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 15:24:06 GMT 1
I make this poll, because i want understand what other players, who also own one, think about the current youthscout situation.
In my opinion, the youthscout is a problem in the game, because is to much expensive for the results it produces (quality of young cyclists). Simply no make much sense.
When you pay a lot of of money to a employer, you want a lot of good results, is common sense. And the reality is, i have invested in the last six seassons a lot of money (13-13-15, ~115k per week) in this employer and the resolts are very poor.
In this moment is a better option buy young cyclists than have a youthscout, is more cheap, and the difference in quality is almost none.
Also i think a cut in wage of youthscout will be benefic to increase a competitivity of the more weak and small teams, with diflicult in winning races and have money to buy good cyclists, because this measure will allow to this teams create the cyclists that they cannot buy without create a big financial problems for own teams.
If you think different or have different arguments, please share your opinion
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Post by minimuis on Feb 17, 2017 16:02:23 GMT 1
Hello,
It's a very weak point in the game, indeed
I really agree with you "Tubara Junior"!
We pay too much for a small profit and poor result!
Hopefully there will be a change in the game to solve this problem.
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Post by rarau on Feb 17, 2017 17:58:50 GMT 1
In this moment is a better option buy young cyclists than have a youthscout, is more cheap, and the difference in quality is almost none.
till last 2 seasons the prices for youngsters from youthscouts was very low.
But when Genomico and Slayer decide to buy youngsters the scout become profitable.
The problem in this game is the income like you all said.
2-3 teams (almost) crush everything in their division.
Probably something need to be done with sponsor income.
This season probably i m near 0 or minus from youthscout.
I think the problem for scout is that steering and balance are so random.
you could have a 20-20-20 scout and you could have only low steering and balance.
I think a scout like me 10-10-10 is profitable or near 0
If we have less youthscouts the price for youngsters will raise.
All changes need to be minore in all areas else the price for youngsters will raise till sky.
If the scout become too popular then the price of youngsters will be near 0 and in this manner all prices of cyclists will become 0 and is not good for the healthy of this game.
In my oppinion in a season a team need to discover / train maximum 4-5 youngsters.
I think is not normal to have 16 youngsters on a season else all price will fall down quickly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 19:41:33 GMT 1
"till last 2 seasons the prices for youngsters from youthscouts was very low.
But when Genomico and Slayer decide to buy youngsters the scout become profitable"
It is always good to know that the financial and economic viability of youthscout is totally dependent on the necessity of a few rich teams to buy young cyclists.
"If the scout become too popular then the price of youngsters will be near 0 and in this manner all prices of cyclists will become 0 and is not good for the healthy of this game."
This isn't true, if you have a good cyclist to sell, the market always will pay good money for him. YYoung cyclists recently discovered are rarely good.
"The problem in this game is the income like you all said.
2-3 teams (almost) crush everything in their division.
In this part i agree with you, but isn't the only problem.
"In my oppinion in a season a team need to discover / train maximum 4-5 youngsters.
I think is not normal to have 16 youngsters on a season else all price will fall down quickly"
I think differently, in my opinion if you want create a competitive team with young cyclists, you need to have the max. as possible of young cyclists because the majority of them isn't good enough.
But in this point i believe that is question of players preference.
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Post by Schizm on Feb 17, 2017 20:00:57 GMT 1
I have a 15-15-15 youthscout, and pay almost 155k per week. That is a lot of money, which you never can recover in income because prices for new pulls are only high enough in the first 5-6 weeks of the season.
Nevertheless I think lowering the wage is NO solution at all. Like Rarau says selling prices will drop further (Supply will rise but the demand will fall, as the number of managers isnt growing).
For me the things that can be improved for youthscout are
- a minimum skill for balance/steering (not to much 10% of the scouts skill will probably be enough). So expensive scouts will generate less useless cyclists.
- an increase of the skilltotal with the age, a 19 yo could f.i. have 3 extra skillpoints divided over the skills (emulating one season of training).
- But most of all it would benefit from shorter carreers for cyclists, unfortunately this is almost impossible to implement without restarting the whole thing from scratch.
P.S. on average steering and balance of my 26 pulls so far scored 6,7 for steering and 7,4 on balance (since the decimal part isnt visible I would call that the expected average).
P.P.S. : A youth scout should never be profitable by default ! that should not be the intention of the game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 21:45:08 GMT 1
I have a 15-15-15 youthscout, and pay almost 155k per week. That is a lot of money, which you never can recover in income because prices for new pulls are only high enough in the first 5-6 weeks of the season. Nevertheless I think lowering the wage is NO solution at all. Like Rarau says selling prices will drop further (Supply will rise but the demand will fall, as the number of managers isnt growing). For me the things that can be improved for youthscout are - a minimum skill for balance/steering (not to much 10% of the scouts skill will probably be enough). So expensive scouts will generate less useless cyclists. - an increase of the skilltotal with the age, a 19 yo could f.i. have 3 extra skillpoints divided over the skills (emulating one season of training). - But most of all it would benefit from shorter carreers for cyclists, unfortunately this is almost impossible to implement without restarting the whole thing from scratch. P.S. on average steering and balance of my 26 pulls so far scored 6,7 for steering and 7,4 on balance (since the decimal part isnt visible I would call that the expected average). P.P.S. : A youth scout should never be profitable by default ! that should not be the intention of the game. I understand your points, and in general i agree with your proposals for improvement. But you need to have in consideration that the young cyclists in most cases have low "fa" and low capability to improve in principal primary skills (Mountain, Hill, Plane) from seven to up. I think the main question here is, for you anda Rarau the principal point to have a YouthScout is to make money with selling fresh young cyclist. For me is to help teams create a competitive team whithout need buy , make the young cyclists grow, and when they prove to be good cyclist, maybe sell if you need extra money or not selling. I don't believe that if the wage of youthscout is cut to half, for example, every teams or most part of the teams will run to hire one, because if them want play with one, they can have one cheap like Rarau have (10-10-10), is not good but is funcional. And the aparently good young cyclists will continue to cost a good money in the first weeks of each season regardless of the quantity. |
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Post by rarau on Feb 18, 2017 10:22:10 GMT 1
Tubara said :
This isn't true, if you have a good cyclist to sell, the market always will pay good money for him. YYoung cyclists recently discovered are rarely good.
But you need to have in consideration that the young cyclists in most cases have low "fa" and low capability to improve in principal primary skills (Mountain, Hill, Plane) from seven to up.
and when they prove to be good cyclist, maybe sell if you need extra money or not selling.
why young cyclists are not good??
how you know that young cyclists have low FA??
All population (of cyclists) have the same chances to have or not good FA
You search all cyclists on all 3 skills? flat, hill, mountain ?!?
Scout is only for CA it doesnt tell you anything about FA
and the other 2 skills of scout are unrelated with FA
perception -> how often scout find a cyclist
steering / balance how good couuld be this 2
And by the way can you see now on tl a very good cyclist with low skills in my oppinion but with very good results? I cannot said his name i dont want to influence the market.
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Post by rarau on Feb 18, 2017 10:27:31 GMT 1
For me the things that can be improved for youthscout are - a minimum skill for balance/steering (not to much 10% of the scouts skill will probably be enough). So expensive scouts will generate less useless cyclists. P.P.S. : A youth scout should never be profitable by default ! that should not be the intention of the game. what it means 10% of the scouts skill? if you have a 10-10-10 scout the sum is 30 then the minimum balance/steering to be 3? if you have 15-15-16 scout the sum is 46 then the minimum balance/steering to be 4? if you have 10-20-20 scout the sum is 50 then the minimum balance/steering to be 5? i m the accord with your p.p.s. |
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bart1985
Junior Team
Let's go Orange!
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Post by bart1985 on Feb 18, 2017 11:10:40 GMT 1
After reading all the statements I agree that a youth scout should never be profitable. Especially because a good youth scout is only affordable by team with good liquidity and a steady income.
We should not make the difference between the bigger and smaller team bigger and give the smaller teams a realistic chance of improving.
Therefore I am suggesting to make the youthscout cheaper for the teams in the 4th and 5th division and keep the prices for a youthscout the same for divisions 1, 2 and 3.
That way lower division teams can get good talents quicker and choose for the option of training them or selling them for a good profit.
I also agree with the calculations for balance/steering as we all know how important that skill for a youth rider is for.
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Post by quiller on Feb 18, 2017 12:10:33 GMT 1
I do NOT agree that the wage should go down (for youth scout) ... i have one and am losing money (in fact i am in serious trouble this season (sold almost all i could and am now at only 20 cyclist from which only 6 can do a lot)... BUT the youth scout gives me good flavour (as it should)...
Yes some things need fine tuning but not a lot...
Why not (if possible) give the youth riders a stat of future ability that is visible (but not an exact number..) for instance : ABCD stat. on 20 that should be :
D = FA between 1 and 5
C = FA between 6 and 10
B = FA between 11 and 15
A = FA between 16 and 20
the ones with 'low' fa should get 4 stats points more when generated
that way one could buy low FA for teams wanting to win youth races and High FA for the future... it would (in my view) make the prices for youth go up because hunting them would be interesting (and old ones could fade out faster that way... just an idea...
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Post by bam on Feb 18, 2017 12:16:41 GMT 1
I have a 0-14-15 scout currently, costing me about 92k. In contrast to others, I don't think that this is too much. Compared to what many pay on a trainer or on cyclist wages, it is not outbalanced I think.
The main advantage of a scout is in my opinion that you are at first hand at selecting youngsters. The pulls that I like the most I normally don't sell, so they are never available for teams that save their money for these kind of cyclists and don't have a youth scout. Of course, at some point I get the problem of training spots and I do sell rather nice cyclists, but also at that point I still have the choice of who I sell and who I keep, while others can only buy the cyclist that I sell. Therefore, I don't think the scout should be profitable on default. In fact, I even think that it won't be possible, as many teams would take one when you can make profit with it, increasing the supply (and probably decreasing the demand at the same time, as people have their own scout), causing the prices to fall until it isn't profitable anymore. For the same advantage, I also think that the price should not be lowered. It is a choice you make, not everyone has to be able to afford a youth scout ánd to have an expensive trainer ánd to have many expensive cyclists.
However, I do think that the quality of the cyclists should improve. I have this scout now for 6 seasons (of course the skills have changed a bit in this time), and always kept the statistics. Based on the perception of my scout (linear increasing the change of finding a cyclist according to the Wiki), I should have found a cyclist in about 65.5% of the cases. In reality, this is only 53%. Of these pulls 50.9% are 19 years old and 49.1% are 18, which is quite close to the 50% I would expect. Average of steering and balance are 6.7 and 6.8 respectively. Since my scout didn't find any cyclist before he had this skill on 14, this is also quite acceptable. So the loose components are not too bad, except for perception in my case. The main problem however with the scout is the that the combination of finding a cyclist early in the season that is 18 years old and has good secondary skills is too low. Currently, pulling a cyclist from 19 is nearly as usefull as finding no cyclist at all. I would therefore totally support an increase in skill points with age. It would even be better if there is some compensation for the time in the season, because now pulls late in the season are just as useless as the 19 year olds in my opinion. A minimum in steering/balance would also be good, or maybe a bias to higher skills instead of making every skill below the scout's skill equally likely. The perception thing is difficult to change I think, but actually something needs to be done. In my case, my scout found only 5 cyclists in the first 17 pulls (perception on 10, 11 or 12), and four of them were 19 as well (the one that was 18 had balance 1 and was sold for that reason). When a skill compensation is given for the time in the season and the age, the problem is a bit smaller (more valuable cyclists in the pulls you do get), but the results of the scout should actually be closer to the expected results in my opinion. However, I don't have a good solution to achieve this without changing the entire system.
Conclusion: I don't think the price is the problem, but the performance of the scout. Minima in steering/balance and skill compensations for age and time in the season would be good solutions in my opinion.
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Post by Schizm on Feb 18, 2017 12:17:13 GMT 1
But you need to have in consideration that the young cyclists in most cases have low "fa" and low capability to improve in principal primary skills (Mountain, Hill, Plane) from seven to up. That is totally untrue , the total FA is the same for every cyclist, 70 points randomly divided over 6 skills (in fact fixed for 2 skills and variable on 4 skills). I think the main question here is, for you anda Rarau the principal point to have a YouthScout is to make money with selling fresh young cyclist. For me is to help teams create a competitive team whithout need buy , make the young cyclists grow, and when they prove to be good cyclist, maybe sell if you need extra money or not selling. Where did I say I want to make money from the scout ? My top goal was my team becoming a feeder team, developing youngsters till their contracts run out (or my roaster was filled). So I do sell them but without the intention of making money (I bought 2 "oldies" for that, only because I found it was impossible to stay healthy financially on youngsters alone). For me the things that can be improved for youthscout are - a minimum skill for balance/steering (not to much 10% of the scouts skill will probably be enough). So expensive scouts will generate less useless cyclists. P.P.S. : A youth scout should never be profitable by default ! that should not be the intention of the game. what it means 10% of the scouts skill? if you have a 10-10-10 scout the sum is 30 then the minimum balance/steering to be 3? if you have 15-15-16 scout the sum is 46 then the minimum balance/steering to be 4? if you have 10-20-20 scout the sum is 50 then the minimum balance/steering to be 5? i m the accord with your p.p.s. 10% of the scouts steering/balance skill , technically now a 10 B/S scout generates a random number between 0.00 and 10.00 with a minimal change that could be changed to between 1.00 and 10.00 (or 1.00 points could be added afterward for the same result (but the maximum of 10.00 would still apply)). For a 15 B/S scout that would be between 1.5 and 15.0 I was considering 20% first but then a 20 B/S scout would almost never produce a bad B/S cyclist. |
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Post by rarau on Feb 18, 2017 12:48:37 GMT 1
Therefore I am suggesting to make the youthscout cheaper for the teams in the 4th and 5th division and keep the prices for a youthscout the same for divisions 1, 2 and 3. That way lower division teams can get good talents quicker and choose for the option of training them or selling them for a good profit. i agree but what will be if : me, Slayer, Genomico, Franconia or other user very active on game, on transfer list go on division 4 only for this. Some user demote from division 2 to 3 because on second division lost money every season and on division 3 win a lot of money. I give my example (theoretically) i go on division 4 , i sell my cyclists who are not stars, i keep 5 stars, i finish every season on place 3 and my scout wage is low. Sooon i will have a lot of money, probably 2.000.000 - 5.000.000 per season, i stay for example 3 seasons and i will make for sure 10.000.000 then i buy all is good on transfer list and i crush division 3 or 2. Again all the changes need to be minore and announced with a long time before. Again i think the problem is on sponsor (he dont offer enough money) and not in other areas. Youthscout probably is the most sensible area . p.s probably some could upset on me but division 6 for this it was, for making money for new users. 1.First season you dont know to play the game, win not to much money -> div 6 2. On season 2 you promote to division 5 make a lot of money (at least 1.000.000) promote 3. On season 3 you promote to division 4 make a lot of money (at least 3.000.000) promote on season 4 the real game START, now you are healthy (at least 3.000.000) , you need to enter in all races, and you start to learn. If you are good finish on top 5, if not near or relegate. I know for what was stopped div 6, i respect what Admins do but this is my oppinion I know that we have to few users  |
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Post by punkska on Feb 18, 2017 12:52:30 GMT 1
I have a 8-11-12 youthscout. Fairly cheap I think at 53k a week.
There's 3 cyclists I've kept this season (none look great), and I've sold 5 cyclists found by him this season for a total of 70k, 3 of them 19 and two 18. That's not at all profitable, and bareful useful - I guess I didn't get lucky in the early weeks for a decent transfer fee, but as others said I'm happy to pay it, to add a little fun to the game and also because it is only a small cost compared to that of my trainer (375k a week) and my cyclists (384k now)
As an overview of the financial health of my team currently - if we take out transfer profit I've lost about 2 million this season, so long term I need to cut costs I guess (or do better in the races!)
I agree that the steering / balance could do with a boost. Any other major changes would change the game too much I guess - which I think it needs, but that's for another topic, and I don't have much hope for this game turning itself around longterm.
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Post by rarau on Feb 18, 2017 13:03:04 GMT 1
1. I have a 0-14-15 scout currently, costing me about 92k. In contrast to others, I don't think that this is too much. Compared to what many pay on a trainer or on cyclist wages, it is not outbalanced I think. 2. The main advantage of a scout is in my opinion that you are at first hand at selecting youngsters. The pulls that I like the most I normally don't sell, so they are never available for teams that save their money for these kind of cyclists and don't have a youth scout. Of course, at some point I get the problem of training spots and I do sell rather nice cyclists, but also at that point I still have the choice of who I sell and who I keep, while others can only buy the cyclist that I sell. Therefore, I don't think the scout should be profitable on default. In fact, I even think that it won't be possible, as many teams would take one when you can make profit with it, increasing the supply (and probably decreasing the demand at the same time, as people have their own scout), causing the prices to fall until it isn't profitable anymore. For the same advantage, I also think that the price should not be lowered. It is a choice you make, not everyone has to be able to afford a youth scout ánd to have an expensive trainer ánd to have many expensive cyclists. 3. However, I do think that the quality of the cyclists should improve. I have this scout now for 6 seasons (of course the skills have changed a bit in this time), and always kept the statistics. Based on the perception of my scout (linear increasing the change of finding a cyclist according to the Wiki), I should have found a cyclist in about 65.5% of the cases. In reality, this is only 53%. Of these pulls 50.9% are 19 years old and 49.1% are 18, which is quite close to the 50% I would expect. Average of steering and balance are 6.7 and 6.8 respectively. Since my scout didn't find any cyclist before he had this skill on 14, this is also quite acceptable. So the loose components are not too bad, except for perception in my case. The main problem however with the scout is the that the combination of finding a cyclist early in the season that is 18 years old and has good secondary skills is too low. Currently, pulling a cyclist from 19 is nearly as usefull as finding no cyclist at all. I would therefore totally support an increase in skill points with age. It would even be better if there is some compensation for the time in the season, because now pulls late in the season are just as useless as the 19 year olds in my opinion. A minimum in steering/balance would also be good, or maybe a bias to higher skills instead of making every skill below the scout's skill equally likely. The perception thing is difficult to change I think, but actually something needs to be done. In my case, my scout found only 5 cyclists in the first 17 pulls (perception on 10, 11 or 12), and four of them were 19 as well (the one that was 18 had balance 1 and was sold for that reason). When a skill compensation is given for the time in the season and the age, the problem is a bit smaller (more valuable cyclists in the pulls you do get), but the results of the scout should actually be closer to the expected results in my opinion. However, I don't have a good solution to achieve this without changing the entire system. 4. Conclusion: I don't think the price is the problem, but the performance of the scout. Minima in steering/balance and skill compensations for age and time in the season would be good solutions in my opinion. 1 and 2 I have totally the same oppinion 3.nice statistics Since my scout didn't find any cyclist before he had this skill on 14, this is also quite acceptable. So the loose components are not too bad, except for perception in my case.
i dont understood this part Currently, pulling a cyclist from 19 is nearly as usefull as finding no cyclist at all. totally accord but this is normal to be, we cant have only stars
I would therefore totally support an increase in skill points with age. It would even be better if there is some compensation for the time in the season, because now pulls late in the season are just as useless as the 19 year olds in my opinion.if a pulls from the end of the season is better or equal the cyclists born in first day then the prices for cyclists borned in first 2-3 weeks will crush, will go to probably maximum 50.000 Why to buy in first week if after 5 weeks you will find a cyclist the same? And in this way pulls will low steering and balance will not be sell anymore, why to buy him, if in 7 weeks you will find a cyclist with same skills but better steering and balance ?!?
The pulls that I like the most I normally don't sell, so they are never available for teams that save their money for these kind of cyclists and don't have a youth scout.
this is the reason why i have a scout |
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