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Post by Il Padrino on Oct 18, 2011 18:18:29 GMT 1
Original topic by veryrisky had no poll, and since his suggestion is interesting and makes sense, a poll to see what the rest thinks ;D I'm new to the game but I was wondering if consideration was given to changing the way fitness is recovered? You could have cyclists recovering say 3% per day each day instead of 20% on Sunday. Alternatively it could be 4% or 5% for each day not racing, which be interesting for the tour races. I think this was suggested a few years ago, but it's still a good suggestion ;D It's not difficult to implement this, but it will cause big changes in team tactics. I guess it will depend on how many players are for and against this. It would change things and would make the rest days more important, which would have a tactical impact. Of course exactly how much fitness you regain per days becomes critical. However the current system does make me think it was bases of every cyclist getting a visit from Dr Fuenteso once a week  I agree a daily fitness update would be more realistic. The way it is now, all cyclists gain +20 fitness at the end of the week, no matter how many races they participated in. By making the fitness gain daily and the amount depending on a race participation or not it would certainly add depth to the game, and give more tactical options. |
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Post by kuijpie on Oct 18, 2011 19:23:09 GMT 1
I think it is a good idea, but there need to be a couple of detailed plans to choose from. It can have a huge impact on the game.
What would be a great implementation in my opinion is a condition/endurance skill, which could determine both how much fitness a cyclists loses during a race and how much fitness he gains daily. That will also aflect reality much better, then that skill can make a difference between a classics cyclist with high skills but a high fitness loss and a tour cyclist with lower skills (as he is trained on endurance too) but high fitness.
Maybe something like a training camp in the mountains (in dutch: hoogtestage) could be added too, so you can get even higher(105/110%) fitness before a big tour, but it will cost your cyclist 2 weeks in which it cant participate in matches.
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Post by NikeBoy on Oct 18, 2011 19:41:56 GMT 1
I'm new to the game but I was wondering if consideration was given to changing the way fitness is recovered? You could have cyclists recovering say 3% per day each day instead of 20% on Sunday. Alternatively it could be 4% or 5% for each day not racing, which be interesting for the tour races. Could you elaborate a bit on the last comment : It could 4% or 5% each day not racing, which could be interesting for tour races ? Maybe give some examples in which you have a tactical advantage with this system ? Without being pro or contra : keep in mind that in the new race engine there is an important tactic called "Save Fitness". When choosing this tactic the cyclist will not lose any (or very little) fitness during a race. When you implement above idea and have a 2% net loss (5% effort loss + 3% gain) a day, this new tactic is not very interesting anymore... So I need some more info before voting |
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Post by kuijpie on Oct 18, 2011 20:51:09 GMT 1
In combination with the new tactic maybe the fitness loss without save fitness should be higher then the current fitness loss
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Post by Il Padrino on Oct 18, 2011 21:07:12 GMT 1
I think it is a good idea, but there need to be a couple of detailed plans to choose from. It can have a huge impact on the game. What would be a great implementation in my opinion is a condition/endurance skill, which could determine both how much fitness a cyclists loses during a race and how much fitness he gains daily. That will also aflect reality much better, then that skill can make a difference between a classics cyclist with high skills but a high fitness loss and a tour cyclist with lower skills (as he is trained on endurance too) but high fitness. Maybe something like a training camp in the mountains (in dutch: hoogtestage) could be added too, so you can get even higher(105/110%) fitness before a big tour, but it will cost your cyclist 2 weeks in which it cant participate in matches. Some good ideas here  The endurance skill looks interesting. |
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Post by lee1950 on Oct 18, 2011 21:14:39 GMT 1
Been looking at Season 9 (the last season I have full stats on) and running some numbers... There are typically 14 Sunday updates during a 15 week season, so: Total Season Fitness Recovery = 14 weeks * 20 = 280The Calendar is 105 racing days long.The maximum racing days a team's top rider would likely race is: Max Races = 3 Grand Tours + 1 short tour = (3*11) + 3 = 36If we do a daily fitness recovery that applies whether a rider is racing or resting, then recovering 3 Fitness points/day makes easy math sense: 20 weekly Fitness/ 7 days = 2.867/day = Round to 3. However, this does not add a layer of strategy as NikeBoy points out in post above this. If Fitness in only recovered when Resting - then it starts getting interesting. For our Max race rider, he currently gets to recover 280 Fitness in a season with 14 Sundays, while he races 36 days. 105 days - 36 days = 69 Resting days. If riders recover 4 Fitness each day they are Resting, then our Max race rider would recover 4 Fitness for 69 days in a full season. 69 * 4 = 276. 276 compares quite favorably with 280. And, with the new tactical option that allows a rider to save fitness during a stage, a little less overall recovery in a season makes sense. Summary: Recovering 4 Fitness per Rest days makes more sense than 5 Fitness per Rest day. Now - let's apply this to the Giro and the T.deF. The Giro races for 8 days; then 1 rest day; 1 race day; 2 rest days; 2 race days. Assume a riders starts with 100 Fitness and races at 70% each day: his Fitness during the race will look like this... 100 - ( 8*5) = 60 + ( 1*4) =64 - ( 1*5) = 59 + ( 2*4) = 67 - ( 2*5) = 57 The Giro ends Nov 15, and the Tour starts Dec 2. That is 16 Rest days, so our theoretical rider will recover 64 Fitness points. Since he ended the Giro with 57, he actually could have used another 21 Fitness points during the race to end at 36 Fitness, since he recovers 64 Resting for the Tour. Those 21 points would allow, for instance, one race day at 91% and 10 at 70%. That feels a bit limiting on tactical options (ignoring the save fitness tactic) so the new calendar may need to be built with another more than 3 rest days during a Grand Tour. It's interesting so I'm voting for could have some potential. |
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Post by lee1950 on Oct 18, 2011 21:28:16 GMT 1
I think it is a good idea, but there need to be a couple of detailed plans to choose from. It can have a huge impact on the game. What would be a great implementation in my opinion is a condition/endurance skill, which could determine both how much fitness a cyclists loses during a race and how much fitness he gains daily. That will also aflect reality much better, then that skill can make a difference between a classics cyclist with high skills but a high fitness loss and a tour cyclist with lower skills (as he is trained on endurance too) but high fitness. Maybe something like a training camp in the mountains (in dutch: hoogtestage) could be added too, so you can get even higher(105/110%) fitness before a big tour, but it will cost your cyclist 2 weeks in which it cant participate in matches. Some good ideas here The endurance skill looks interesting. Agree. I think an important negative to consider would be it will make the game more complicated for a casual player who logs in 2 or 3 times a week. I like the extra layer of tactics/strategy, but I might not represent the majority of the Peloton! |
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Post by VeryRisky on Oct 18, 2011 21:28:45 GMT 1
As I said in he first post I am new to the game, so I don't actually know what tactics you are meant to use in the current system, but it seems a shame that the rest days don't affect tactics whereas the day of the week does.
I'm just trying to work out how you balance it without creating too much trouble for the db (I'm a dev). In way I'd like to make the first day of rest to have a bigger impact than the rest but that it a bit more hassle to code.
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Post by Quatannens on Oct 18, 2011 21:45:39 GMT 1
If we would work with a fitness update every day, I would like to see low fitnesses go faster up then high fitnesses. So to go from 50 to 60% fitness will take less days then going from 90 to 100% fitness. This way you won't be able to start with 100% fitness at a lot of tours. So you'll have to focus more on certain tours/races. If it's to complicated, it's ok for me to have a constant number for the fitness recover.
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Post by lee1950 on Oct 18, 2011 21:50:50 GMT 1
In way I'd like to make the first day of rest to have a bigger impact than the rest but that it a bit more hassle to code. If we would work with a fitness update every day, I would like to see low fitnesses go faster up then high fitnesses. So to go from 50 to 60% fitness will take less days then going from 90 to 100% fitness. This way you won't be able to start with 100% fitness at a lot of tours. So you'll have to focus more on certain tours/races. If it's to complicated, it's ok for me to have a constant number for the fitness recover. Lot of interesting ideas coming out for this topic! |
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Post by diable on Oct 18, 2011 22:44:11 GMT 1
But then we need to check them daily, to see if the cyclist is fully recovered? or am i wrong?
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czukay
U23 Developm. Team
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Post by czukay on Oct 18, 2011 23:20:09 GMT 1
Nobody has had the opportunity to go through a season under the new race engine so we don't know whether adding extra levels of complication is a good idea or not.
Personally I'd like to see all energies going into the new engine and I imagine we'll all have many suggestions about that once we get to use it and will certainly be in a better place to then give an opinion on wholesale fitness changes.
Should probably leave it at that but I can't resist........
However as a principle, and I know it might upset the number crunchers, I think there should be some variability in the fitness loss and gain in some way, but perhaps that could be partly acheived by race tactics in the new engine - some useful tactics that overide the percentage you set for the cyclist for example so you don't know the fitness effect going into the race. Or failing that just plain old random 'bad day on the bike' fitness hits rather than adding a new skill to the cyclists.
I would be very wary of making changes that could effect the viability of cyclists after teams have invested a heap of time training them and buying them as it's just going to get people angry when it turns out their record signing has the 'endurance' level of a small child. If you made it a randomly fluctuating variable, maybe influencable somehow rather than full on random, it could work.
Just something so we can get away from the ability to basically set your lineups and tactics for the whole season on day 1 and only have to change them if you get an injury or two - force a bit more management on the hoof.
Like I say though, I'm not voting on this because I've never used the new engine so I have no idea whether this would be a good idea or not.
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Post by ElGringo on Oct 20, 2011 8:53:59 GMT 1
I like the way it is, and I like to come here at sunday night and see the pop-ups training and fitness.
But I´m ready to change my position if something very good comes.
Note: This is not a real game, its virtual so theres no need to trie to put everything like in real life. And if the method of fitness growing change to a more realistic we need to take in count, the fitness for race participation, age of riders, recover time, training, etc..
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Post by chakra on Oct 22, 2011 10:40:29 GMT 1
I like the way it is, and I like to come here at sunday night and see the pop-ups training and fitness. But I´m ready to change my position if something very good comes. Note: This is not a real game, its virtual so theres no need to trie to put everything like in real life. And if the method of fitness growing change to a more realistic we need to take in count, the fitness for race participation, age of riders, recover time, training, etc.. right you are!  |
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Post by lee1950 on Oct 23, 2011 4:40:46 GMT 1
...and the current way works by providing a different tactical challenge than RL.
I agree with elgringo - I like this unless something very good comes along.
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I'm new to the game but I was wondering if consideration was given to changing the way fitness is recovered?
I think this was suggested a few years ago, but it's still a good suggestion ;D
The endurance skill looks interesting.
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