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Post by kuijpie on Oct 11, 2011 9:29:10 GMT 1
In the past, when all teams had a lot of cyclist ans where trading a lot, at some point it was decided that all cyclists of which the team stopped would come on the transfermarket. Nowadays this leads to multiple complete bot teams coming on the transfermarket wacht day. And as all these teams are as good as all other teams the cyclists getting on the market are good cyclists for everyone. This in combination with the FA being max till skill 7 creates a situation where nobody wants to have a youthscout. The talents come on the market cheaply anyway! And if the FA for starting team cyclists is anything like before all these cyclists have a very bad FA and everyone will train very slow. Second thing is that all money spend on these cyclists now goes out of the game while not much money is coming into the game.
I think bot cyclists should not go to the market anymore, at least for the first couple of seasons. Then people will have to optimise their economics to be able to pay a trainer and a youthscout.
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Post by Mardandoo on Oct 11, 2011 9:48:16 GMT 1
I totally agree.
In addition, the teams who score well, get much money in comparison with the scoring scoring less. So the teams that are already good can easily purchase more talents. The differentiation between the teams will be a little to much, I suppose.
Human teams are not likely to set their talents on the market, so we have to train ourselfs a good team and that is the best of the game, I guess!
Mad
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Post by NikeBoy on Oct 11, 2011 12:40:32 GMT 1
Very good point !!!
The question even is : why would you put these cyclists (also fired cyclists, not only from bot teams) on the TM ?
In the previous peloton version this was added after a poll because a lot of people wanted to see very well known cyclists (from teams in first divisions who had stopped or were banned) on the TM.
I think we should stop this madness ;D
YS will become much more valuable !
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Post by ElGringo on Oct 11, 2011 12:58:20 GMT 1
I don´t agree.
The possibility of purchase a bot rider is equal to all teams. Some teams take the risk of going to negative by buying more and expensive, and other dont.
And its a big diference between a bot rider and a rider scouted by a scout 20/20/20. Here we see all many diferent tactics, some buy bot riders and others prefer scouts, they are options, but in long term the scout(20/20/20) will be the objective for all teams, but now we hope we have luck with bot riders to win some stages and to grow and sell higher.
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Post by Schizm on Oct 11, 2011 13:09:17 GMT 1
I like the way the selling of bot-cyclists retracts money from the game, there is not really a need for that now but there will be later. ElGringo : When 20/20/20 scouted cyclists will be on the market there also will be the possibility that they end up in a soon to bankrupt team and will become available when there is a bot-sell. If I remember correctly most bot-cyclists in peloton v1.0 came on the market a long while after the teams became bots (when they were replaced by a human which for good teams could last a while beacause they first had to be demoted a few times before they got to the lowest divisions). Maybe bot-cyclists should stay unavailable for atleast one season (again) (and age with the rest). Only then scouted/trained cyclists will have an edge on them but new teams can still ilmprove their team relatively cheap ?
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Post by Mardandoo on Oct 11, 2011 13:17:55 GMT 1
Yes,
The oppurtunity to buy those cyclists from botteams is good, but not for the first (or even the second too) season. The differentiation will be too big, between the teams who could win some money with the original cyclists and the ones who couldn't.
It's up to IP, though
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Post by Il Padrino on Oct 11, 2011 13:21:10 GMT 1
I think it's indeed an effective way to retract money from the game. True, not very important right now, but it will be and I want to keep it like that.
And yes, bot-cyclists only appear on the TL when their bot-team has been replaced by an active player. So there's (normally) a certain time period.
I think I might be able to solve this issue by changing the order of assigning new teams to a division. At the moment there is first a check to see if there are any bots in the lowest division and if there are, the new team will replace the bot. Only if there are no bots, the new team will be assigned to an open spot in a random subdivision in the lowest division.
So this causes bot-cyclists to appear so early in the game on the TL. If I simply change this order, bots will exist longer (until the lowest division is full, which will probably take until the end of the season at least) and the problem is solved.
The downside to this, is that certain divisions might become completely inactive because the bots aren't replaced quickly enough and people don't have fun anymore. At least now, bots are replaced very fast and all divisions are active.
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Post by kuijpie on Oct 11, 2011 15:12:22 GMT 1
Sounds like a good solution to me. For the inactive divisions there are 2 options: have 1 boringen season but promoten easily with a fun 2nd season, or replace teams from inactive divisions. I think both are evenly good/bad
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Post by dottdivine on Oct 11, 2011 16:57:28 GMT 1
Well, most of the BOT teams are due to bankruptcy.. and almost only new team with starting riders go bankruptcy.. and soon the starting riders won't be of any use for most of the teams cause too weak. But they will help who will start in the future to enlarge their roster like they are helping us right now. So, the only interesting BOT riders will come from the team whose manager left the game.. so they won't flood the market.. they'll come out on a random basis. If it's a problem, it's just a momentary problem.. so i won't change anything.
I have almost filled my roster already, and most of the riders form BOT team isn't interesting for me anymore. Who is able to trade with them.. well good for him ^^ But the market right now can also be quite random and it's difficult to tell how prices will swing.... so i don't think it's that easy..
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Post by lee1950 on Oct 11, 2011 19:18:22 GMT 1
.. and soon the starting riders won't be of any use for most of the teams cause too weak. But they will help who will start in the future to enlarge their roster like they are helping us right now. So, the only interesting BOT riders will come from the team whose manager left the game.. so they won't flood the market.. they'll come out on a random basis. If it's a problem, it's just a momentary problem.. so i won't change anything. I have almost filled my roster already, and most of the riders form BOT team isn't interesting for me anymore. Who is able to trade with them.. well good for him ^^ But the market right now can also be quite random and it's difficult to tell how prices will swing.... so i don't think it's that easy.. Agree. The steady flow of entry level riders will be helpful to new teams as time continues...just as it is helpful to us now. I have 21 riders and won't be buying very many more. Very few of the BOT riders fit my team-building plan. I will be much more interested in a few weeks when teams start to sell riders who have been trained to 3 or 4 in the skills that I'm not training. BOT riders on the market also help save new teams from bidding on overpriced riders. If the flow of BOT riders slows down, it won't hurt managers like me who have built up their team, but it will put teams that haven't added riders at a disadvantage. You can't ride a full schedule with 12 riders. It's going to be a long time before any 20-20-20 YS are around. $900,000 just to hire a 10-10-10 at $45,000 salary.
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Post by NikeBoy on Oct 11, 2011 20:26:04 GMT 1
Keeping the discussion fire alive ;D Strange that everyone is in favour of dropping all cyclists on the market. IP made a poll some years ago about this topic : peloton.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=pelotonsuggestions&thread=1537&post=26379Clearly the (very small) majority did not agree There are clearly some advantages and disadvantages : If the cyclists weren't dropped on the TM, there would be very few cyclists on the TM, selling for hundred thousands. Also a lot of teams would have only 12 cyclists, not be able to compete in every race, dropping the pricemoney even more. On the other hand, teams that invest in a YS (with low CA and st/ba, because others are too expensive) will not be able to make profit out of their (possible) pulls. The pulls probably have lower stats (especially st/ba) than the bot-cyclists. Another example in which this could be a disadvantage : within a few weeks (a season), I decide to sell my 7 flat, hoping to make some money out of it as 7 will be almost the highest skill in the game. At the same time, 3 teams (each containing 25 cyclists, full training flat) go bankrupt and are replaced by new teams : 75 cyclists of which 35 to 40 also have a flat 7 skill will be dropped with price 0 on the market. Surely my flat 7 will not sell at the same price as it would sell when I had the only 7 on the market (just an example) Worth a discussion ...
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Post by Schizm on Oct 11, 2011 21:01:14 GMT 1
If I remember correctly I wasn't in favour of it back then ... but people do change their minds.
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Post by lee1950 on Oct 12, 2011 1:04:26 GMT 1
Worth a discussion ... Biggest downside to taking BOT riders off the market is it will leave teams with 20+ riders (like mine) with a big advantage. A quick look at weeks 3 and 4 on this season's calendar show how hard it will be for a team with only 12 riders. However, the arguments in favor of slowing/stopping BOT riders hitting the market are good, too. I'm in favor of whatever helps Peloton advance. If Il Padrino makes a change to lower the number of BOT riders, I would recommend an Announcement at least a week before implementation. That will allow managers who are just realizing they need more riders to pick some up. I've been trying to think of a compromise but not having much luck. Hopefully there are more powerful minds working on this!!
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Post by xtremespooky on Oct 12, 2011 7:43:15 GMT 1
Another example in which this could be a disadvantage : within a few weeks (a season), I decide to sell my 7 flat, hoping to make some money out of it as 7 will be almost the highest skill in the game. At the same time, 3 teams (each containing 25 cyclists, full training flat) go bankrupt and are replaced by new teams : 75 cyclists of which 35 to 40 also have a flat 7 skill will be dropped with price 0 on the market. Surely my flat 7 will not sell at the same price as it would sell when I had the only 7 on the market (just an example) Worth a discussion ... Teams with 25 cyclists with FLAT 7 shouldn't go bankrupt...they just sell a few cyclists no?
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tijsco
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 15
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Post by tijsco on Oct 12, 2011 7:50:37 GMT 1
I was thinking about this problem too. I think the botplayers should become available on the TM. But I think what NikeBoy sees as a disadvantage will become the biggest problem: trained teams going bankrupt. So maybe it's a good idea that cyclists with skills above 3 or 4, will be lowered to 2 or 3 before coming available. Maybe it's even possible that the cyclists of an botteam will steadily decrease their skilllevels (capped to 2 or 3), so when they become available there will be enough -cheap- cyclists for new teams or teams without a lot of momey, and teams who have trained up cyclists can still sell them at the right price...
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