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Post by champadero on Apr 29, 2014 12:45:27 GMT 1
I think its a long time known bug, but still happens so... Last race of the season, Giro dell' Emilia, division 2:1.
Vadim is a nice flat guy but thats all, Ghizzani an allrounder with low TT, Vlieberghe an allrounder with acceptable TT, Pagliarini a allround climber and Szekely a mountain sprinter, but Pagliarini is the best climber.
All my riders were on 100% fitness and effort, Pagliarini attacking on points 3 and 7(fails attack at AP 3, while he succeeds at AP 7 which is also strange...), Ghizzani attacking on point 2, Szekely setted as General Standings guy (strange that it could be selected), and Vlieberghe and Vadim as helpers. None of them suffered any fall or flat tire.
At attack point 6 (race part 17), Szekely gets relegated and Vadim and Vlieberghe stay with him 34 sec behind peloton, while Pagliarini and Ghizzani stay in peloton, everything correct (it also happened on the previous flat parts).
At part 18, first of the last 4 mountains with no attack point, after this climb Vlieberghe and Szekely are 41 sec in front of the peloton, while Vadim gets back to the peloton with Pagliarini and Ghizzani.
Now Szekely starts to win time to the peloton in flat, till 1:03, with just Vlieberghe´s help while before he was not able to stay there even with Vadim´s help.... At downhill difference gets to 1:17
Race part 21, attack point 7, Pagliarini attacks and escapes 1:22 from peloton, but his difference to Szekely and Vlieberghe gets to 1:21...
From here its all the same, Pagliarini recovers a bit on flat and lose time on downhill and mountain
Though there are little things that are weird to me, they could be explained by the other guy in the group, but the main issue in this case is about relegated guys that overtake peloton without attacking, while better cyclist remain at peloton...
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hammond
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 17
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Post by hammond on May 24, 2014 13:36:43 GMT 1
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Post by kurtinsc on May 24, 2014 15:30:16 GMT 1
The details don't show what happens in the very last section of the race. Rather it's the way the race stands entering the very last part.
Two things happen in the last section of any race.
First... there's the "regular" result of the section. Did people from a group further back catch the lead group? Was there an attack point for someone to make a move? Did someone fall off the pace.
Second... there's the sprint for the finish. If you're leading in a group at the finish, it's likely you were the best at the terrain for the prior section. But the final sprint takes the new terrain into account (which you may not be as good on) and the sprint skill (to varying degrees depending on the terrain... more important for flat then mountain).
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hammond
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 17
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Post by hammond on May 24, 2014 16:26:38 GMT 1
but he was alone, the second one was for example 40 seconds behind him, there was no attack point and no fall... I understand that he could win a sprint, but how could there be a sprint if they were not in a one group? I still don´t understand what happened... and the same thing in two races in a row!
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Post by Michellios on May 24, 2014 16:49:46 GMT 1
but he was alone, the second one was for example 40 seconds behind him, there was no attack point and no fall... I understand that he could win a sprint, but how could there be a sprint if they were not in a one group? I still don´t understand what happened... and the same thing in two races in a row! So at the last point (23/24 stage 1) 1. Lagarde 1 03:11:17 2. Debussche 2 03:11:41 3. Gibon 3 03:12:29 4. Giobergia 3 03:12:29 5. Verbrugghe 3 03:12:29 And in the final part Debussche came back and wins the sprint against Lagarde, Debussche doesn't need to attack because he's allready alone. That's what happens I think.
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Post by Michellios on May 24, 2014 16:56:12 GMT 1
For the other stage same situation. He had only 24 seconds in the first race and 22 seconds in the second race before the last part so that's not very much.
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Post by aaabbbccc on May 24, 2014 17:51:17 GMT 1
Your cyclist has always at least of one fall or flat, so maybe they're in the last parts.
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hammond
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 17
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Post by hammond on May 24, 2014 18:44:05 GMT 1
thank you guys for answers, I think that it is strange, but I have to respect that
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Post by goof on Jun 4, 2014 12:31:43 GMT 1
I don't know if it is a bug, but I had very strange results today. How is it possible that my 12 flat/ 7 tt guy (helper) ends in the same group as my flat 1 flat/ 6 tt guy (save fitness) and finishes at 12 minutes? The former guy had almost perfect skills for today's race! Do helpers also help the save fitness guy? Both cyclists didn't have a fall or flat tire.
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Post by kurtinsc on Jun 4, 2014 13:03:17 GMT 1
I don't know if it is a bug, but I had very strange results today. How is it possible that my 12 flat/ 7 tt guy (helper) ends in the same group as my flat 1 flat/ 6 tt guy (save fitness) and finishes at 12 minutes? The former guy had almost perfect skills for today's race! Do helpers also help the save fitness guy? Both cyclists didn't have a fall or flat tire. The documentation says that helpers will fall back to help a GC, final sprinter or attacker. In practice it feels like they do the same with save fitness guys too... but I can't prove that. They aren't supposed to according to the docs. I do think that save fitness = no chance at the stage for all practical purposes. I would never put any rider you expect to compete for the GC or want to do well in a stage as a "helper". I consider that a good thing. Helpers should never finish high up in a race. I don't even think they should take part in final sprints, but I think they still do.
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Post by goof on Jun 5, 2014 10:31:05 GMT 1
I don't know if it is a bug, but I had very strange results today. How is it possible that my 12 flat/ 7 tt guy (helper) ends in the same group as my flat 1 flat/ 6 tt guy (save fitness) and finishes at 12 minutes? The former guy had almost perfect skills for today's race! Do helpers also help the save fitness guy? Both cyclists didn't have a fall or flat tire. The documentation says that helpers will fall back to help a GC, final sprinter or attacker. In practice it feels like they do the same with save fitness guys too... but I can't prove that. They aren't supposed to according to the docs. I do think that save fitness = no chance at the stage for all practical purposes. I would never put any rider you expect to compete for the GC or want to do well in a stage as a "helper". I consider that a good thing. Helpers should never finish high up in a race. I don't even think they should take part in final sprints, but I think they still do. Yes, but in this case the time loss of the helper is extraodinary. A cyclist with flat 12 and all other skills 2+ should have no problem to finish in the front grouo. My sprinter was one group in front of him and they should have sticked together. But my final sprinter did not even sprint, while he has 8 on that, 12 on flat and 3 on hill and mountain. The final kilometers were downhill and he's really poor on that, so I can accept that his spint was bad though. But how can he finish on 12 minutes of the attackers? Now I am in a stronger division, attacking seems even more overpowerd (I don't know if that is a word) and this ruins the game. If this will not be corrected sooner or later, I will quit.
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Post by heppie on Jun 5, 2014 14:13:52 GMT 1
I believe that helpers will help all other cyclist of your team as long as they're in the same group. If a GC guy, final sprinter or an attacker is dropped the helper will also drop to help this cyclist back to the peloton. Further your helpers will try to increase the speed of the peloton if you don't have any cyclist in front of the peloton.
If I'm correct you're pointing at Volta ao Algarve stage 1. That stage is starts with a lot of flat parts and in the end there are 2 mountain parts and a bit of hill. I looked at the race report and I think the following is the case:
At the first attack point nearly all teams attack with a cyclist. This means that there are nearly no teams that speed up the peloton and therefore the speed of the peloton is very low. In this way your low flat cyclist can stay in the peloton for a long time (probably also with some aid of your helpers). On the last flat part before the mountains (which is the longest flat part, 15 km) he's dropped. Your helper stays in the peloton, as it should be.
Then the first mountain part comes. After that part you save fitness cyclist is in the same time as the peloton, but in a different group. On the following flat and hill parts that group loses a bit of time on the peloton. At the next mountain part your flat helper can't follow the peloton and after the mountain part he is a bit in front of your save fitness guy. In the last part (downhill) the group with your save fitness guy manages to catch the group of you helper.
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Post by rarau on Jun 5, 2014 17:13:20 GMT 1
very good explanation heppie . goof i said in last season too (when we was in the same group 4.8) your team is too young. Last season you finish 2 because our league was easy. You see my results now in div 3? In , my opinion, the most difficult from 3 Why i was last season in division 4? Only because of Nightbiker who now crush all in division 2. In last 2 weeks i dont put cyclists in races and in this way WC VroOom promote. See now 3.1 1. Luptatorii din Rarau 2001 874 2. Nattramn 3110 600 3. Tours.Cycle.Club 1100 599 4. WC VroOom 2111 581 Nattram is on place 2 because he play some cyclists on fitness. Vroom 4 day ago (sunday) have only 8 C VroOom 1000 224 So I understand you are upset but your team is very young. And of course like heppie told you and i told you too last season this game is almost only for attackers and TT
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Post by goof on Jun 6, 2014 11:54:43 GMT 1
I believe that helpers will help all other cyclist of your team as long as they're in the same group. If a GC guy, final sprinter or an attacker is dropped the helper will also drop to help this cyclist back to the peloton. Further your helpers will try to increase the speed of the peloton if you don't have any cyclist in front of the peloton. If I'm correct you're pointing at Volta ao Algarve stage 1. That stage is starts with a lot of flat parts and in the end there are 2 mountain parts and a bit of hill. I looked at the race report and I think the following is the case: At the first attack point nearly all teams attack with a cyclist. This means that there are nearly no teams that speed up the peloton and therefore the speed of the peloton is very low. In this way your low flat cyclist can stay in the peloton for a long time (probably also with some aid of your helpers). On the last flat part before the mountains (which is the longest flat part, 15 km) he's dropped. Your helper stays in the peloton, as it should be. Then the first mountain part comes. After that part you save fitness cyclist is in the same time as the peloton, but in a different group. On the following flat and hill parts that group loses a bit of time on the peloton. At the next mountain part your flat helper can't follow the peloton and after the mountain part he is a bit in front of your save fitness guy. In the last part (downhill) the group with your save fitness guy manages to catch the group of you helper. This is a very accurate explanation. Thank you. This still leaves the question why my helper couldn't stick in the group of my final sprinter (their skills are very similair). And yes, rarau, you are right. My team is too young to do some damage. But if I see that two of my best cyclists finish in the last two groups in a generally flat stage, I feel injustice is served. The current engine is not balanced at all. But fortunally, I finally had some good results yesterday. Concerning Nightbiker, he must be profititing 100% of the inbalanced engine to crush the 3rd/ 2nd division. Their cyclists are not invincible. The are most of the time 25-30 years old, have 7 tt or more and some decent statt on the other skills (10+ on mountain for example). But you are not in the most difficult division 3 rarau. I compared both divisions and my division is faster. MOD-edit : You know what and why I had to edit this !
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adder
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 3
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Post by adder on Jun 7, 2014 17:06:10 GMT 1
I'm wondering on what the engine is based if attackers stay away in a race or not. For me the race results of the last two days were just rediculous. Since my oponent does not make any transfers and since hes pretty new, his cyclists should be like (3flat-1hill-2mountain-etc..). All my 5 cyclists have a skillsum that is about 4 times the rate of his cyclists. I know it's also based on flat/mountain/hill... But still my cyclists are pretty allround (except from hill). For Example: 8flat-2hill-7mountain or 7 flat-2hill-10mountain,... In other words I don't see my oponent could have any chances of winning. Yesterday one of his cyclists attacked on the first possible attacking point. Even with my helper (who is far more superior than his cyclists) I could not close the gap. Today he did attack again on the first possible point with one of his cyclists. I had one helper again, who barely closed the gap. Now I had chosen for 3 attackers on the next attacking point. These 3 closed the gap on his one attacker in about 3-4 race parts. He even fell in the part where they got together. On that point the gap between the 4 attackers and the peloton was between 30secs-1min. For some reason my helper was even 8 seconds in front of the peloton. And all of a sudden in the next part, everything was together again. The gap was closed without any flat tires or falls. On the last point he attacked with another cyclist and won the race with a nice gap.
So for me it does not make much sense. How can far more superior cyclists not be a lot better. How can he close the gap between 3 superior attackers, with max 3 helpers (he had 2 attackers) who have far worse skills...
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