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Post by berdios on May 6, 2009 12:33:49 GMT 1
The problem with a counterattack tactic is the fact that you have to choose a cyclist of another team that you will follow when he attacks. But what happens if the other team changes its riders at the very last moment ? What do you do when you subscribe for a race as a first team one week upfront (because you can not log in anymore afterwards), you can not set this tactic !? You see, there are some pratical constraints for such a tactic... I see, but it whas a nice try just one more stupid question ...can you can see the other persons tacktics ? ....
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Post by Il Padrino on May 6, 2009 13:56:49 GMT 1
No
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Post by iwander71 on May 6, 2009 18:17:17 GMT 1
...the bar is being raised... I'm so excited, and I just can't hide it! I'm about to lose control and I think I like it... ;D oh... and by the way... the rhythm is going to get you.
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thejoery
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 10
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Post by thejoery on May 6, 2009 19:18:48 GMT 1
I love this new race engine already I can't wait 'till next season
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Post by lee1950 on May 7, 2009 0:26:44 GMT 1
First off, I think it is cool that we're putting the peloton back into "The Peloton". Also, I agree that this is a game (and as such is often a lot more fun than watching many of the televised RL stages) and that means you can improvise and improve on RL. That said .... Fitness loss will be exactly the same as now, except for the SaF'ers who will loose less fitness at the end of the race. It seems reasonable that riders in successful escapes should risk suffering some additional fitness loss. As noted in the announcement: "A single rider will have to face the wind and weather all the time, and therefore cannot hide behind another cyclists back. In those circumstances, he needs to be a sufficiently skilled time trialer to keep up a constant pace. However, in a more extended group, the cyclists can draft behind one another, forming an echelon, and as such the individual time trial skills will be of less importance for the pace of the entire group."I'm a huge fan of attackers, even forlorn hopes, but they pay a real physical price for long escapes, and the price is inversely proportional to the size of the group. The current RE models this, as a manager can set a rider to race at >70% to try and steal a stage win, or pick up some sprint/mountain points. (Just because I've never done this successfully doesn't mean it isn't a valid and interesting tactical option.) The opportunity comes at the cost of the rider's fitness, so there is a balance, and the manager has to weigh the risk/reward. A solo rider off the front gets to sweep up the IM Sprint points and the KOM points, and it feels like he should also pay a fitness price for that, unless the new RaceTactic points are very high, limiting the opportunity for most teams to use it more than once a stage. I think using the TT skill to model the ability of a smaller group of riders to hold off the peloton is very reasonable - but time trialling is one of the most physically demanding skills in the peloton, and after 50-100 kilometers of it, I think you have a rider who has lost fitness. I feel the game would benefit if there is a fitness cost to the rider(s) in a successful escape, to offset the Green and Polka Dot point opportunities they will gain. The fitness cost could vary with the number of riders, being highest for a solo rider, and reducing the cost for escapee groups of two or three, and perhaps eliminating it for groups of 4 or more. It would also add another management element to the game. Thanks for hearing me out!
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philam
Cycling Tourist Group
Posts: 8
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Post by philam on May 7, 2009 14:05:03 GMT 1
Fitness loss will be exactly the same as now, except for the SaF'ers who will loose less fitness at the end of the race. Does it mean that a good tactic is to attack at every point ? What is the point of having a tactic if there is no drawback (extra loss in fitness) in attacking all the time ? So to summarize, there are two good options: - you attack at all the points (no more fitness losses) - you are a SAFer (less fitness losses)
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Post by NikeBoy on May 7, 2009 15:08:01 GMT 1
You have a maximum number of 5 attacks per cyclist and there will be a loss in "attack effectiveness" every time you attack, so there is a drawback. This drawback was just not mentioned yet in the short announcement
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Post by iwander71 on May 8, 2009 9:51:50 GMT 1
Intermediate sprints are handled as in real life, i.e. you don’t have to elect point sprint or mountain sprint cyclists anymore before the race starts. The one that reaches an intermediate sprint first, will get the most points, and so on. If a group of cyclists has reached an intermediate sprint they will sprint for the points. If the first three riders are from one team do they take the three spots on the intermediate sprints? Or do the positions still distribute between teams? (If my question seems silly, please remember I am a very new fan to the sport of cycling... )
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Post by NikeBoy on May 8, 2009 11:02:10 GMT 1
What a silly question ;D
Yes, the first 3 cyclists crossing the line, whether they are from the same team or from different teams, take the points
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Post by bkoen on May 9, 2009 10:16:47 GMT 1
very nice changes! still one question: in real cycling, a climber is able to win without launching a single attack, simply because he climbs better. Will that also be the case in the game? As I read it the answer is yes. If your rider has a lot better skill in the current terrain than the rest of the peloton then they will keep the tempo high and no one will be able to keep up so they will take the lead without actually attacking. Hopefully some can confirm my understanding Is this confirmed already or ...? I am a mountain trainer from the beginning and until now I did not have to see for the sprint skill at all. On flat races, I was never a match compared with flat trainers. On mountain races however the mountain skill of my cyclists are (quite) high so they left everybody behind. So with the changes, the flat trainers have a huge advantage because they look for trainees with sprint before training them... So they have better attackers and they will win sprints from the peloton. My overall opinion : Good ideas but it seems that the sprint skill is now very important. If you want to attack, you need sprint. If you want to win a (mass)sprint, you need it again. You needed it already for every race, 1/4 of the distance of flat you have to drive additional at the end of the race (with your sprintskill) if I am not mistaken? One question only : If you plan an attack at km 150. But another team plans an attack much earlier (km 75), will my cyclist follow him automatically because he wants to attack also that race or will he stay behind until km 150 and try to cath him? Supplementairy : May be I do not want to follow at km 75 because a long escape is not always succesful, the peloton might catch the group back. An perform my attack on km 150 as planned. Is that an option as well? To keep your strength in the peloton and attack later on? There needs to be an equilibrium between the both... of course you want to follow an attacker who attacks 5km before your attacking point but not 50km in advance... What a comment In all case, we will see what the designers/administrators can do Nobody forbids me to train 1 saison the sprint skill or ... so we will manage to stay in division 2 ;D greetings!
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Post by chakra on May 9, 2009 13:26:43 GMT 1
Your attacker will not follow automatically the other attackers. In real life they would, but this is our virtual life.
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Post by iwander71 on May 10, 2009 5:01:03 GMT 1
Hey NikeBoy, nice to hear from you. I hope your season 8 is starting strong friend. ...I think it is because I am feeling a bit silly for my rant/blurb in the 'cheaters' thread... As another friend pointed out... "everywhere you go... not a very nice persons." I know this and I shouldn't have let such a trivial thing get to me. Crazy Canucks are strong! They are going to turn heads. I just regret posting that thread and maybe I have developed a bit of a 'silly' complex.
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Post by dottdivine on May 11, 2009 3:27:17 GMT 1
I was thinking about a situation like this:
A cyclist with high mountain skill but with very low flat skill drop back in the first part of the stage where there is only flat terrain. Then a mountain arrive and he is setted to attack there. Will he attack even if he isn't in the peloton anymore?
If he attacks: he makes a break away from his former group, now he is lonely and he goes fast.. but now he encounter a big group of cyclyst with high flat skill, but not enough mountains skill to stay with the peloton. Now he will join that group and he goes with that group speed.. but the speed of that group isn't high enough and since the group is quite big.. his very high mountain skill don't make the average speed of the group high enough to drop down the other cyclist and he will be "stopped" there. It will work this way? How the cyclist will lose time from the peloton? how often it will be checked if the cyclist can stay in the peloton or not? (and the new average speed of the group of course)
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Post by NikeBoy on May 11, 2009 11:43:19 GMT 1
As I read it the answer is yes. If your rider has a lot better skill in the current terrain than the rest of the peloton then they will keep the tempo high and no one will be able to keep up so they will take the lead without actually attacking. Hopefully some can confirm my understanding Is this confirmed already or ...? I am a mountain trainer from the beginning and until now I did not have to see for the sprint skill at all. On flat races, I was never a match compared with flat trainers. On mountain races however the mountain skill of my cyclists are (quite) high so they left everybody behind. So with the changes, the flat trainers have a huge advantage because they look for trainees with sprint before training them... So they have better attackers and they will win sprints from the peloton. My overall opinion : Good ideas but it seems that the sprint skill is now very important. If you want to attack, you need sprint. If you want to win a (mass)sprint, you need it again. You needed it already for every race, 1/4 of the distance of flat you have to drive additional at the end of the race (with your sprintskill) if I am not mistaken? No panic ! It is not because sprint and timetrial become more important in the new engine that these skills will dominate the game ! Even with a low sprintskill you still have a good chance to succesfully attack. No, an attack at 150km means he will attack at 150km, regardless how many attacks were already done before. Since you can not follow another attack, this question is not longer valid Good luck
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Post by NikeBoy on May 11, 2009 11:51:04 GMT 1
I was thinking about a situation like this: A cyclist with high mountain skill but with very low flat skill drop back in the first part of the stage where there is only flat terrain. Then a mountain arrive and he is setted to attack there. Will he attack even if he isn't in the peloton anymore? Ofcourse he will attack, but this attack will be from a group behind the peloton. It may lead to a situation in which the cyclist returns succesfully to the peloton Indeed, just like in real life, when a good cyclist is in a lage group behind the "group of favorites", he will get no or little help from the group in his attempt to rejoin the favorites. The only thing he can do, is place another attack and try to catch up with the group in front all on his own. So, indeed, a good cyclist can get "trapped" in a bad group Patience, wait until the engine is implemented ;D
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