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Post by ElGringo on Feb 25, 2013 22:35:50 GMT 1
Again though, you have opponents that likely have their top mountain cyclists in this race, throughout their team (helpers and leaders).
I can't speak toward the code, but it has seemed to me that this season, attacks are harder... if you attack on a section that is the dominant part of the tour or race. If it's a mostly flat 1-day race, attacks on the flat require a much higher sprint then attacking on the flat section of a 1-day mountain race. And attacks on a mountain on a mostly flat race are easier to pull off then attacks on the mountain of a mountain race. OK, I understand why I couldn't get away on the first stage and I learned from it, but as you say, the best mountain riders are in the Giro. But how can my 4 flat GC rider lose 8 minutes in the second stage without a flat or a fall when the 4 flat rider of Seberla on save fitness only lose 1 minute? Can you explain that with the math? I didn't check your report, but when your rider was left behind he say alone or with other guys? That 8 min is strange. Nikeboy told some time ago if a rider gets solo he needs TT+ terrain to recover time, but your guys should have TT so only Nikeboy to give the right explanation.
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Post by ElGringo on Feb 25, 2013 22:37:14 GMT 1
"If he's set as a helper, he's not going to get any help from other helpers and he'd hang back to help your riders not set as a helper." Are you sure? I think helpers also get help by other helpers, but I'm not sure I have the same idea. When I have only helpers in the peloton and for some case the lider is in front or behind, if a helper in peloton have a flat problem the others help.
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Post by kurtinsc on Feb 25, 2013 22:51:59 GMT 1
It is Struyfs, not Glassee. Struyfs is heavier, and has about 4,4 flat. Indeed he had 75% fitness but he did go at 70%, not save fitness. I had set Strufs as a helper, but also other helpers. But I guess Struyfs should kept the pace with Streber. I can set only as attacker, helper, sprinter or nothing. If I do nothing and another cyclist falls, nobody is helping him, he isn't a sprinter and I also didn't want him to attack. So, no other option than a helper. What else can I do then? I expect a helper to follow. If not, then there should be another tactic possible. Gc rider or follower, what ever. But it is impossible in my opinion that Struyfs lost contact and Streber didn't considering the stats, efforts and fitness. And it ruined my Giro. Well... it may have come down to the fact that someone else fell off the pace and Struyfs fell back to help, or he fell off but nobody else was there to help him (or good enough to help him). I pretty much NEVER set a guy I care about in the GC to helper. It's a very unpredictable setting. If you set it for nothing, they'll try to keep up with the lead group, won't help others and will recieve help (though perhaps not at the expense of a final sprinter). They'll still try for a sprint but won't get a bonus. Final sprinter is the same with a bonus. Attacker is the same except they'll try attacks. Save energy is the same with less energy used and no attempt at sprints. And let's be honest... it makes no sense for your lead rider to act as a helper. Helpers by nature sacrifice their own standing to help others. That sounds like what happened on stage 2. A blank setting would be fine. Final sprinter would probably be better. That's what I use for my GC guy when I want to make sure he gets help, even if they aren't a sprinter. It ensures they are delivered to the finish.
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Post by kurtinsc on Feb 25, 2013 22:53:38 GMT 1
"If he's set as a helper, he's not going to get any help from other helpers and he'd hang back to help your riders not set as a helper." Are you sure? I think helpers also get help by other helpers, but I'm not sure I have the same idea. When I have only helpers in the peloton and for some case the lider is in front or behind, if a helper in peloton have a flat problem the others help. Maybe they do help when there isn't another non-helper in the group. In the case I looked at, the first helper crashed while there were others still in the group who were set to settings other then helper.
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Post by kurtinsc on Feb 25, 2013 22:57:42 GMT 1
OK, I understand why I couldn't get away on the first stage and I learned from it, but as you say, the best mountain riders are in the Giro. But how can my 4 flat GC rider lose 8 minutes in the second stage without a flat or a fall when the 4 flat rider of Seberla on save fitness only lose 1 minute? Can you explain that with the math? I didn't check your report, but when your rider was left behind he say alone or with other guys? That 8 min is strange. Nikeboy told some time ago if a rider gets solo he needs TT+ terrain to recover time, but your guys should have TT so only Nikeboy to give the right explanation. I think he fell back into a somewhat larger group of cyclists. Likely most of them had low flat ratings (thus they were dropped). So the poor rankings of the others in the group probably hurt his chances. I'm not sure why he didn't attack if he was significantly better though... I know that happens sometimes. He was dropped in the first 2 sections... so lots of distance for the gap to spread. One can assume that most of the guys ahead were at a higher flat rating in the peloton.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Feb 26, 2013 0:09:08 GMT 1
I didn't check your report, but when your rider was left behind he say alone or with other guys? That 8 min is strange. Nikeboy told some time ago if a rider gets solo he needs TT+ terrain to recover time, but your guys should have TT so only Nikeboy to give the right explanation. I think he fell back into a somewhat larger group of cyclists. Likely most of them had low flat ratings (thus they were dropped). So the poor rankings of the others in the group probably hurt his chances. I'm not sure why he didn't attack if he was significantly better though... I know that happens sometimes. He was dropped in the first 2 sections... so lots of distance for the gap to spread. One can assume that most of the guys ahead were at a higher flat rating in the peloton. Struyfs did not fell, nor has he had a flat tyre. No other of my cyclists fell that stage. Only one flat tyre but that was in part 16. He didn't fell back to a somewhat larger group. The larger group (39 cyclists) stayed in the peloton. He fell back with a small group of 8. That happened in the part 2, early in the race. So, no normal explanation. But my estimation of 4,4 was false. It should 4,2 Flat. But since a group of experienced and good managers can't seem to find a good explanation for it, it proves to me that this is very, very strange.
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Post by kurtinsc on Feb 26, 2013 0:30:11 GMT 1
I think he fell back into a somewhat larger group of cyclists. Likely most of them had low flat ratings (thus they were dropped). So the poor rankings of the others in the group probably hurt his chances. I'm not sure why he didn't attack if he was significantly better though... I know that happens sometimes. He was dropped in the first 2 sections... so lots of distance for the gap to spread. One can assume that most of the guys ahead were at a higher flat rating in the peloton. Struyfs did not fell, nor has he had a flat tyre. No other of my cyclists fell that stage. Only one flat tyre but that was in part 16. He didn't fell back to a somewhat larger group. The larger group (39 cyclists) stayed in the peloton. He fell back with a small group of 8. That happened in the part 2, early in the race. So, no normal explanation. But my estimation of 4,4 was false. It should 4,2 Flat. But since a group of experienced and good managers can't seem to find a good explanation for it, it proves to me that this is very, very strange. By "fall back" I didn't mean fall down, I meant drop back to help a rider who lost contact for other reasons, or simply lost contact due to his own ratings. And by "somewhat larger", I didn't mean larger then the main peloton, I meant that it had more then just your riders in it. the thought is that if you were in with other riders who had 0/1/2 flat and lower TT's, their low rankings would slow that group down significantly. To be honest, him being a helper throws all the rest off for me. The behavior of helpers has always confused me... which is why I never set riders who's time I care about in a stage (or a tour) as helper. My guess is that you had another rider in that group with a setting other then helper. Because of that, your 4-flat rider relayed at the front to help the non-helper but didn't attack to try to rejoin on his own because he'd be abandoning the rider he was supposed to help. Because of that, the lower flat/TT riders he was grouped with slowed the group down causing him to lose massive time. But that's only a guess... the helper role is confusing.
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Post by ElGringo on Feb 26, 2013 1:13:00 GMT 1
I checked your race now and now its a little difficult to analise because I don't know the % used by the majority of riders.
There are some top flat riders riding and I know that 4 managers had train flat 1 or 2 seasons. On the 2 part of the stage some teams place attacks and peloton speed increase and the quantity of flat riders with skill over 7 is high, you had already lost 1 riders( contact to peloton) and in that fase you lost more 3 riders.
I. van Teeffelen was set as helper? Is flat skill is high? Probably not enough to keep is leader in the peloton.
Terminal Velocity, Kimbainvelocipede, lambs&lions, FRONTEIRA and WTC Porsche, they all have very strong riders in flat.
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Post by Genomico on Feb 26, 2013 7:25:06 GMT 1
To be honest, him being a helper throws all the rest off for me. The behavior of helpers has always confused me... which is why I never set riders who's time I care about in a stage (or a tour) as helper. I always put my best cyclists (like Malton) as helper, so they help my other cyclists to hang on and do their best to get rid of cyclists from other teams. If best cyclists are not put as helper too many other cyclists would be able to hang on and are e.g. able to win the sprint.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Feb 26, 2013 10:09:52 GMT 1
My guess is that you had another rider in that group with a setting other then helper. Because of that, your 4-flat rider relayed at the front to help the non-helper but didn't attack to try to rejoin on his own because he'd be abandoning the rider he was supposed to help. Because of that, the lower flat/TT riders he was grouped with slowed the group down causing him to lose massive time. But that's only a guess... the helper role is confusing. No, they where all helper. Only Van Teeffelen was an attacker, but he finished in the peloton.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Feb 26, 2013 10:19:01 GMT 1
I checked your race now and now its a little difficult to analise because I don't know the % used by the majority of riders. There are some top flat riders riding and I know that 4 managers had train flat 1 or 2 seasons. On the 2 part of the stage some teams place attacks and peloton speed increase and the quantity of flat riders with skill over 7 is high, you had already lost 1 riders( contact to peloton) and in that fase you lost more 3 riders. Terminal Velocity, Kimbainvelocipede, lambs&lions, FRONTEIRA and WTC Porsche, they all have very strong riders in flat. Speed increases, that I understand. But how can the flat 4,0 of Seberla who had fitness of 81% and rode on save fitness, follow the peloton. And my flat 4,2 with fitness 75% and effort 70% not. This means 4,0*0,81*0,6=1,944 agianst my 4,2x0,75*0,7=2,205. So mine should be stronger. And he also couldn't have to help my worst flatter (which I took for the ITT and TTT) because he was already behind. And since my guy has a good tt skill, he was a serious gc contender. Now, not anymore... And by the way, Terminal Velocity and Fronteira are great mountain and sprint teams not great flat teams. Lambs%lions also isn't. The best flat team is Dr. Porsche. There are no real strong flat teams in my division. So, it doesn't make sense and it is still annoying me, I notice.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Feb 26, 2013 10:20:09 GMT 1
To be honest, him being a helper throws all the rest off for me. The behavior of helpers has always confused me... which is why I never set riders who's time I care about in a stage (or a tour) as helper. I always put my best cyclists (like Malton) as helper, so they help my other cyclists to hang on and do their best to get rid of cyclists from other teams. If best cyclists are not put as helper too many other cyclists would be able to hang on and are e.g. able to win the sprint. Me too, but I guess this opens the discussion of perhaps another extra tactic. GC Rider? Follower?
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Post by ElGringo on Feb 26, 2013 12:44:58 GMT 1
I checked your race now and now its a little difficult to analise because I don't know the % used by the majority of riders. There are some top flat riders riding and I know that 4 managers had train flat 1 or 2 seasons. On the 2 part of the stage some teams place attacks and peloton speed increase and the quantity of flat riders with skill over 7 is high, you had already lost 1 riders( contact to peloton) and in that fase you lost more 3 riders. Terminal Velocity, Kimbainvelocipede, lambs&lions, FRONTEIRA and WTC Porsche, they all have very strong riders in flat. Speed increases, that I understand. But how can the flat 4,0 of Seberla who had fitness of 81% and rode on save fitness, follow the peloton. And my flat 4,2 with fitness 75% and effort 70% not. This means 4,0*0,81*0,6=1,944 agianst my 4,2x0,75*0,7=2,205. So mine should be stronger. And he also couldn't have to help my worst flatter (which I took for the ITT and TTT) because he was already behind. And since my guy has a good tt skill, he was a serious gc contender. Now, not anymore... And by the way, Terminal Velocity and Fronteira are great mountain and sprint teams not great flat teams. Lambs%lions also isn't. The best flat team is Dr. Porsche. There are no real strong flat teams in my division. So, it doesn't make sense and it is still annoying me, I notice. So you left your rider all alone with no helpers with good flat skills, thats probably the main reason for is loss of time. The guy from Seberla probably had good flat helpers that keep him on peloton. Related to your opponents I can tell you that Fronteira trained flat for 2 seasons and the others teams have riders with at least 1 season.
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Post by seberla on Feb 26, 2013 13:04:06 GMT 1
So you left your rider all alone with no helpers with good flat skills, thats probably the main reason for is loss of time. The guy from Seberla probably had good flat helpers that keep him on peloton. Related to your opponents I can tell you that Fronteira trained flat for 2 seasons and the others teams have riders with at least 1 season. As I said he had 4 helpers (with flat 9, 7, 7 and 5). I also think that's the main reason.
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Post by Ab Normaal on Feb 26, 2013 13:08:20 GMT 1
Speed increases, that I understand. But how can the flat 4,0 of Seberla who had fitness of 81% and rode on save fitness, follow the peloton. And my flat 4,2 with fitness 75% and effort 70% not. This means 4,0*0,81*0,6=1,944 agianst my 4,2x0,75*0,7=2,205. So mine should be stronger. And he also couldn't have to help my worst flatter (which I took for the ITT and TTT) because he was already behind. And since my guy has a good tt skill, he was a serious gc contender. Now, not anymore... And by the way, Terminal Velocity and Fronteira are great mountain and sprint teams not great flat teams. Lambs%lions also isn't. The best flat team is Dr. Porsche. There are no real strong flat teams in my division. So, it doesn't make sense and it is still annoying me, I notice. So you left your rider all alone with no helpers with good flat skills, thats probably the main reason for is loss of time. The guy from Seberla probably had good flat helpers that keep him on peloton. Related to your opponents I can tell you that Fronteira trained flat for 2 seasons and the others teams have riders with at least 1 season. I left my guy with flt 3 riders, yes indeed and perhaps Seberla has better flat helpers yes. But he can hang on to the group like in real life? I have a rider with 6 on downhill but not enough sprint skill to attack succesfully but he can't lose the peloton because of "the pace of the peloton" which has been said so often. It is a complete pack, not TTT next to each other? So why can't my rider ride along with the pace and drop when a less driver can hang on. That completely makes the definition of the peloton different.
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